Street Tuner

Actually someone did fall asleep during the training. No names though! As an aside I monitor the knock sensors while I tune, and get them to read zero activity during my power runs. I also tune most street driven Ts on 95 octane fuel to ensure the lowest common denominator. That way, it really doesnt matter what fuel they run on the street, the car wont ping. Simple as that.

I can understand how this can seem confusing....but the help file was never there to begin with. Reason? Its an on/off switch setting and we didnt figure it needed an explanation. Looks like we were wrong. The reason Nick could never 'see' the knock sensor settings is that if you intentionally tell the program that the engine has no knock sensors then it says 'ok' and removes their functions from the main menu. You must tell the software the engine has knock sensors again before it will show them up on the menu. Fairly logical.

Nick one last time. READ THE SCREEN YOU WERE MISSING A WINDOWS HELP FILE. This had no bearing on the software or the way it worked.....I installed the G revision database on your machine at the Melbourne training course two months ago. It was current then, generated that day. CAPA emails all its dealers to FTP down the latest databases as soon as they are released, which is why Barry had J revision when you were in Perth. In some cases - as you are no doubt aware - we upgrade the database twice a week. If you are not on the dealer email list then please contact CAPA. Its one phone call away. You have NEVER contacted me about a database upgrade. I do some tuning still - to keep current, and to fix 'issues' that others create - but once more NEVER have I told one of your customers to see someone else, other than in the case of an SA customer, whom I told to come to me. I dont care about your external influences. All I ask, and have always asked is that you present the product in a truthful and factual light. If there is a legitimate problem then let me know, but to suggest that the knock sensing of the system didnt work because a Windows help file is missing is plain stupid. I cant explain it any other way.

Nick I dont want your customers. I dont tune cars for a living. I have indeed helped out one individual, but you dont want me to go into that here. Nor do I want to. Every single point you have raised in this thread about the operation of the software has been totally incorrect. I really hope you do in fact know better. All I want is for you to show a duty of care, and to stop spreading misinformation about the way our software works. Other than that, do what you want.

I dont do it, or recommend it (turn the knock sensors off for road cars) so Im not the right person to ask

I dont know MrX, but I figured the subject post was a stir and promptly typed an answer. No one would be stupid enough to attempt this kind of caper. Right again Philldub RESOUNDING NO. Have a on me

Ok, since you ask I will throw my hat in the ring first... To send an XR6T out with the knock sensors off requires the following attributes in a tuner - 1) Specifically tuning a large cammed 'noisy' aftermarket engine on race fuel for drag strip use 2) Making a mistake when tuning (turn off by accident) 3) Insanity 4) Lack of understanding of what they are doing or how an engine works 5) They run an engine rebuild shop as well and treat turning knock sensors off as a 'work creation scheme' for when the engine finally craps itself due to uncontrolled detonation

If it saves you an engine.....just once....its worth it

That help screen is only generated if you press the F1 key and can be closed like any other pop-up. The knock sensor switch can be changed any time you want.

Dont be confused Bugster, you are on the correct track here. In standard configuration (ie no mods to the way the knock control system works) an XR6T can remove up to 12 degrees ignition timing in a single hit when it senses pinging. So, unless the XR6T is 12 degrees over advanced for a given rev/load point you are correct in assuming you should never hear it 'ping'

Nick, while there is not a specific help box on that setting, the switch system is intuitive and based on commonsense. I.e. a value of '1' means ACTIVE, and a value of '0' means INACTIVE as clearly pointed out on other menu selections such as Torque_Module_switch and Variable_cam_switch. This is fundamental binary logic. By setting knock_sensor_disable_switch to '1' you have in fact told the pcm knock_sensor_disable = ACTIVE and quite literally turned the knock sensors off. Let me repeat and I will say this one more time and very clearly.... THE KNOCK SENSORS ARE ENABLED IN ALL 4.0 LITRE TURBO ENGINE FACTORY PROGRAMS The only time they are disabled Nick is when you have GONE INTO THE SOFTWARE AND MANUALLY DISABLED THE KNOCK SENSORS for whatever reason you have decided. I would strongly advise against this for any customer tune for road applications where different quality fuels may be involved. This can lead to extreme detonation/pinging under different fuel quality/atmospheric conditions and can very quickly destroy an engine. I would also be wise to suggest that you be very careful adjusting knock sensor gains. These are calibrated by the factory engineers using specialist pressure transducers, and determine what the engine thinks is and isnt detonation or knock. Tinkering with these tables without the right lab quality equipment is akin to flying blind.

If you had really listened to the conversation Nick you would have heard from Jerry that the knock sensors are not enabled in the F150 LIGHTNING truck because the sensor cannot 'hear' the front cylinder over the noise of the supercharger. This of course is not the case for the XR6T, and neither Jerry nor anyone at SCT makes changes to the stock file that is loaded in the database. I hope that clears it up Note that in your screenshot Nick the value in knock sensor disable switch is bright ORANGE? That means it has in fact been changed to a GREATER number than the one that exists in the factory program. If that file was indeed stock as you claim (if that's the point you are trying to get across here) then the value would be displayed with a white background as are all the other values. This ORANGE label indicates that you have intentionally changed this value to disable the knock sensors. In addition your screenshot also has the info box covering the number_of_knock_sensors value which is set to 1 (that's how many they have!) from the factory. So, what point are you trying to get across here?

Please supply some details of the problem with your boost control

From the very first release of the CAPA Flash Tuner software the knock sensors have been enabled. In fact everything that is enabled in the stock program is enabled...since that is the base we use. There has also always been the 'number_of_knock_sensors' setting under system switches. By changing this value from the standard '1' to '0' (as you are now state you are doing) you are actually switching the knock sensors off. In fact when you highlight this setting with the cursor, a warning comes up on the bottom of the screen and states - "The number of knock sensors the engine uses. Setting this to zero disables the knock sensor function" Its all there in black and white.....and always has been.

You are quite correct. The main fuel calculation is a reasonable complicated Speed Density or MAP based affair, which is documented on pages 72 and 73 of the CAPA Advanced Ford Flash Training Manual, and covered in some depth by myself for those that attended the later training course. It exists on the main tuning menu under the header 'Speed_Density' These guys are instead referring to the Base_Fuel_Table which is a lamba aim correction relative to this Speed Density calculation that trims the fuel supply to add an extra dimension to the system. It indeed is TPS vs RPM based, but is in no way the primary fuel calculation for the engine. Hope that makes sense.

If this table is set to all zero and EVERY OTHER PART OF THE IDLE CALIBRATION LEFT STANDARD then the car should refuse to fire up and idle without throttle input. If however this is not the case then your tuner may well have adjusted a couple of 'Scalar' functions that can add rpm or air at startup. It is a simple exercise for a tuner to watch what is commanding added rpm at startup (if indeed they have been fiddling with other parameters) and then make the necessary changes to the program. Jet...Ford made a very basic mistake with the calibration of some XR6T programs (interestingly the same mistake wasnt made in the eight cylinder file - which would support the theory that two separate teams developed the calibrations). The values in the table are actually inverse to what they need to be ie. the engine gets less air to assist in starting when cold (when it needs it most) and the most air when it is hot (when it needs it least). As an experiment I simply copied in the table from a 2005 Mustang 6cyl (which has the numbers in the correct fashion) into the XR6T cal, and the result was a seamless startup process. Go figure

Well what? I believe that any dealer that cannot refer to page 20 of the CAPA 'Advanced Ford Flash Traning Manual' and read - -------------------------------------- "If the vehicle has just been started up there is a table that mlutiplies the air needed to attain the desired rpm. This table is a function of how long the engine has been running and the current coolant temperature. There is a separate table for for drive and neutral; these tables are called 'air flow multiplier in drive/neutral'." "These tables are for adding more rpm on the initial startup to allow the engine to run up as well as to compensate for increased engine friction at startup." PAGES 21-23 then provide detailed examples of how these tables work, and the mistake that Ford Aus made in the table calibration to cause the XR6T to flare on startup. --------------------------------------- Any tuner that cannot read and understand that I would have problems with granting any sort of basic competency. My point here is that all of those I know understand this perfectly. Some will admit that its a 2 minute job, a small majority of others though might like to embellish it a little for their own fame and fortune. Either way I dont really care. The function is there, and it works fine. Maybe competent wasnt the right word to use.....

Didnt understand much of what you wrote Nick...but tell me more about these glitches? Remember the story about the tradesman and their tools

This start up flare is easily controlled (increased or decreased) by a competent Edit Tuner. There is a single table that controls the amount of extra air ingested on start up, and when modified, can give almost any desired result.

I know Meatboost personally. Hes an automotive software engineer, and doesnt tune cars for a living.

Sorry, Im confused here....before making torque or air fuel ratio claims, how about you show us the NM (not newtons which is NOT NM) and AFR curves of the same run?

It would seem as though you are being fed misinformation here Eugene. Advantage 2.9 is an EXE file, a command program that opens the database which contains the factory calibrations and all of their control parameters. Whether a tuner uses Advantage 2.8 or 2.9 is not going to affect their functionality to any significant degree. From the very first Australian database (August 2004) the two primary knock sensor control tables (one for fast attack or burst knock, and one for slow correction) have been in there and working, just as they do on a standard car. After all we use the dead stock factory Ford program as the base.....Makes sense right? Now if a tuner adds so much spark into the main timing map that the engine still pings with all of the knock control instigated (I.e. both fast attack and slow correction at maximum which will take out around 12 degrees of timing) then the engine will still ping regardless. Understand? The art of tuning is to keep the ignition timing away from the need for knock sensors, and then let the system utilise them in the case of an unexpected detonation event to do exactly what they are supposed to do - protect the engine. Some engines make enough mechanical noise from the factory that the knock sensors can be active the whole time even in stock form, which would convince those less than switched on that they may not indeed work. By simply interrogating the OBD II data port on the XR6T with a decent scanner or the new CAPA data logger it is possible to monitor this knock correction in real time, and take the appropriate steps (recalibrate the knock gain tables). Indeed the latest version of the Australian database which has been available to CAPA Flash Tuners for over a month now gives the tuner access to a host of different knock control tables including individual cylinder sensitivity to allow fine tuning of the knock system for forged piston/big cam applications where there is a pile of mechanical noise, and still have perfect control.

Spot on the money (as usual) Adam. There is more...much more....to tuning a car than giving it a run at wide open throttle and reading the power. While the car Joetech tuned made excellent power on that dyno run, there are several questions he will be unable to answer that WILL affect the way the car runs on the road or the track.. 1) How close was the fuel strategy to flange or cat temp protect? WHY? Because subsequent driving on the road will make the mixture vary up to 1 whole AFR point in either direction, making it very lean under some circumstances...This is why a lot of piggybacks need to be retuned at regular intervals for peak performance. 2) What was the 'Torque Source' of the engine during the run? WHY? Was the throttle being partially shut due to over boost limitation, was calculated torque too high and spark being reduced which may then appear on the road as detonation? Again Joetech would never, and could never know. 3) Individual knock sensor cylinder readings, what were they? WHY? Without monitoring the gains on each channel through the CAPA Flash Tuner software and controlling the detonation state of each cylinder. Which is why a lot of piggyback engines run great, then suddenly .... have issues .... 4) How far from MBT best timing was the engine? WHY? Because calculations from actual timing then referenced to inferred or MBT timing can cause massive spikes in the desired timing if not mapped using the CAPA Flash Tuner which is why a lot of 'optimally tuned' piggyback cars can detonate like crazy on full load transmission shifts 5) What was the line pressure calculation for the transmission? WHY? Because tricking the map sensor voltages to make the Ford PCM think it has less boost than actual also reduces the line pressure in the auto box which makes it slip excessively...and we all know what happens next. This list could go on for several pages if I wanted it to. But the point is that we are not comparing apples with apples here. Like Simon from Nizpro put it - "Running a piggyback in conjunction with the CAPA Flash Tuner is like buying a new 42 inch LCD television, then keeping your old black and white on top just for old times sake." Wise words those When Joetech gets his hands on his own Edit, which has been coming for a while, then we will be able to make comparisons. Until then, welcome to 1985.

Correct you are. All of the BF programs, including Typhoon, are already in the Australian database ready to go

CAPA Flash Tuner now works on ALL Au Falcon models as well now