PSI40L Member 175 Member For: 21y 4m 2d Posted 07/12/10 02:20 AM Share Posted 07/12/10 02:20 AM The 4litre being such a great motor still has a few flaws in its design where japanese motors still have an edge . we have seen many guys now producing significant power levels of up to 1100 hp where japanese motors are still ahead . For eg a 2jz will produce silly numbers of up to 2000+ hp from a 3litre and 3.4 litre have been recorded and rb26 1700+ hp The ford motor has the advantage of cubes being 4 litres but is restricted by the fact that the motor has troubles that it doesnt want to rev and make power like its derivatives. Most of these motors will make power to about 6000 rpm and then the power starts peeling off . A reason for this is its hydraulic lifters . Just say a set of adjustable solid lifter were put in there place lifting the bar and revving the motor to 9000rpm there fore in turn you will be able to take real advantages of cams and high boost levels and start making some silly horsepower numbers.I wonder who will be the first to address this problemAnother let down that needs to be looked at is the clamping force of the head ,most guys that are up to 1000hp are experiencing cylinder leakage...Rectifying these two issues will see these engines turn into real powerhouses! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty32 Legendary member!! Donating Members 1,739 Member For: 17y 2m 28d Gender: Male Location: Dianella, West Oz Posted 07/12/10 02:43 AM Share Posted 07/12/10 02:43 AM With enough money, you can get these engines to rev...If you read through some of BCL's threads, you will see that he has these engines revving a lot harder than normal (8000 rpm I think).It has been noted that the problem lies in the crankshaft.BCL had to use a custom billet jobbie and the cost was over $6k alone. I think XFT & some of the other tune shops have gone with billet crankshafts aswell.Add fitting and proper balancing and it starts to detract from being a cost effective solution........When you have a 4 litre engine revving that hard, obviously the load & shock risks becoming too much for the crankshaft & running gear and your getting into dangerous territory.Re the head lifting, if you have a look at Spiro's thread, I believe he was making 1200+ hp before he was experiencing problems with the head lifting (bearing in mind that he has had major headwork and obviously the hardware to suit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSI40L Member 175 Member For: 21y 4m 2d Posted 07/12/10 02:57 AM Author Share Posted 07/12/10 02:57 AM a billet crankshaft may increase the rev range only marginally due to it being lighter and therefore lighter rotating mass . But what happens when u run out of lift on the hydraulics due to revs ... that motor would be making its peak power at 6 - 6500 rpm tops yes u can rev it to 8 but it wont make power to that just remember rev equals power a 2jz with hydraulic buckets will make power to 7000 rpm a engine with solids will make power to 10000rpm there fore making more boost cause it can make useable power Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcl Toughest BA Turbo Lifetime Members 3,408 Member For: 21y 3m 26d Gender: Male Location: Sydney Posted 07/12/10 03:33 AM Share Posted 07/12/10 03:33 AM I have had solid lifters in my engine since 2005.One of the biggest problems with the higher revs is the bad harmonics.The higher the revs the greater the stress on the rods.If you want big power and very high revs it would be sensible to de-stroke the motor down to say 3.5L. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty32 Legendary member!! Donating Members 1,739 Member For: 17y 2m 28d Gender: Male Location: Dianella, West Oz Posted 07/12/10 06:38 AM Share Posted 07/12/10 06:38 AM When you have a 4 litre engine revving that hard, obviously the load & shock risks becoming too much for the crankshaft & running gear and your getting into dangerous territory.I was kind of trying to say what Brian said, just in a different way.But - there you go... Straight from the horses mouth*!(* - read, Lord Brian, the pioneer for big power & engine builds for the Barra I6) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mic Donating Members 1,725 Member For: 16y 3m 1d Gender: Male Posted 07/12/10 08:43 AM Share Posted 07/12/10 08:43 AM I have had solid lifters in my engine since 2005.One of the biggest problems with the higher revs is the bad harmonics.The higher the revs the greater the stress on the rods.If you want big power and very high revs it would be sensible to de-stroke the motor down to say 3.5L. Brianwhat ?? are u sure brian ? didnt think any ford apart from srtaughsberry's project had used em ? 3.4l stoked supras can rev to around 9k so I dont see y a 40l barra can't (with solids) ? if u work it out the stroke to rod ratio in the barra is the same as the 3.4l 2jz. and yes I do realize there is a heavier rotating mass with 40l. brian, could your engine be taken out further ? surely with titanium everything it could be ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcl Toughest BA Turbo Lifetime Members 3,408 Member For: 21y 3m 26d Gender: Male Location: Sydney Posted 07/12/10 09:09 AM Share Posted 07/12/10 09:09 AM Yes I'm sure, as from a post of mine in 2006. Just did a search on "solid"!ref The usual principles apply to turbo cars as for n/a carsI.e 1.longer duration/overlap for lumpier idle and for a lot more power at higher revs, to allow more air to flow. 2. more cam lift to flow more air, but more cam wear and pressure on valve springs.Turbo cams used to have less overlap than na cams, for better emissions, and with turbo pressure meant you did not need as much inlet duration to get the air into the cylinders, and better drivability at lower revs, to compensate for the lower compression of turbo cars. Variable cam timing means that is no longer a major issue, and even more so if the tuner knows how to vary the exhaust and inlet independently.Over 20 years ago I played with a Group C racing cam in my Pulsar ET. Power increase was incredible, drivability pathetic under 2500 revs…. those days are over.My car is now running very little extra in terms of lift and extra duration, and that is providing for a 7500 revs limit, and retaining pretty good idle at a bit higher than standard.Factory cams seem to be pretty good up to 500rwkw, and before you get to this power level you need to change quite a few components, including turbo & exhaust manifold.The hydraulic lifters seem to work OK as well, and my car has been used for evaluation of solid and hydraulic lifters.Note:1: no-one is going to reveal their cam specs2: rarely do you do a cam change only (someone doing R&D should)3: don’t expect the same results as someone else if you have different other components…. I.e benefits quoted may not apply to youI’d expect aftermarket cams to have very subtle changes, and probably not a lot of bang for buck, assuming that good drivability is retained.BrianOne of my concerns at the time was the wear effect on the cams. Other than that they work well. It was all part of R&D.Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSI40L Member 175 Member For: 21y 4m 2d Posted 07/12/10 10:40 AM Author Share Posted 07/12/10 10:40 AM (edited) brian where do I get a set of those lifters ive been doing some of my own r & d pull apart an old hydraulic lifter. Gutted it internally so I can use the base of it and in the centre I can turn down an old pushrod that will sit inside the base and threade to allow with a adjustment nut for lash ... that's the best ive come up with so far any hints what urs look like????? Edited 07/12/10 10:43 AM by PSI40L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHLAXN Donating Members 932 Member For: 15y 10m 28d Gender: Male Location: north QLD Posted 07/12/10 11:03 AM Share Posted 07/12/10 11:03 AM http://www.atomicperformanceproducts.com/anti_pumpup_lifters.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUS12 Member 471 Member For: 16y 9m 14d Posted 07/12/10 09:48 PM Share Posted 07/12/10 09:48 PM sorry mate mine spins to over 8000 makes power to over 7500, and hydraulic lifters. stock cams are a big reason they wont make power up high.revvs dont always mean power mate I think your barking up the wrong tree,I got atomic lifters and have not had a drama.one of the reasons 2jz and rb motors are making alot more power is because they have been devolped for 20+years now. 3 years ago 400kw was big in a falcon.I should be making over 1100hp to the wheels next week some time which through a auto and 9 inch should be over 1400hp, still able to drive it on the street with a fuel change, wait for spiros new motor, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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