HOLDEN SV6 TURBO

[Phido]

Expensive Daewoo might make them for export for say, Vauxhall.

Having a car that looks like a older omega, with a ~3L DOHC twin turbo engine, manual transmission, etc would be something Vauxhall would be highly interested in. As it would echo the Lotus Carlton, a extremely respected car based off the Vauxhall/Opel Omega. It had a DOHC 3.6L six cylinder engine, HSV diff, corrvette gearbox, brakes etc.

They might even call it the Vauxhall Carlton. I would imagine, calais spec, twin turbo engine, 6 speed (asian if it can handle it, t-56 if it can't).

Lotus carltons are still changing hands at pretty silly money. It would be a walk in success for Vauxhall, and maybel Opel. Expensive Daewoo would get a firmer grip on the euro market.

Euro's aren't hot on 6.0L V8 engines. Turbo six would make a more reasonable proposition over there, even if it was more expensive.

Expensive Daewoo could make up volume by easily selling 100 models here. As Calais turbos. I don't think it would interfer with HSV too much to worry them.

[Lawsy]

I still don't see it being viable cost wise. You have to sell the car with more than double the egineering costs.

What does a motor cost these days, couple of grand? double that, add 20% for the engineering and research. Add this cost back into the car, stick another 5% on this cars total value and that's your selling price. This is about a 42k car with stock suspension and an executive interior.... To get the specs up, yor looking at about 55k just to start off with a sports model and a turbo v6.

Sure, sell them to someone else, they can cover the cost as makes no difference to holden, but for Expensive Daewoo to use the engine it would cost too much in my opinion, and if they do it, they are very brave (problem is, their bravery put them ahead in the market, so lets hope it doesn't pay off this time if they decide to go ahead with it )

[Turbo6man]

Just because it's a "V" engine doesn't mean it can't be economically turboed. You don't have to have two turbos, and you don't have to have both banks (exhausts) connected before the turbo. A low pressure turbo system, up to 4-6 psi can operate off one bank without any detrimental effect on the engine. With today's engine management systems the computer can calibrate mixtures for each cylinder/bank according to demand/load. Exhausts can also be back pressure balanced with a simple "hot dog" muffler on one bank in place of the "missing" turbo.

I'm not saying we will see Expensive Daewoo do it - I think they will stay with the supercharger route for several reasons. They have ready access to superchargers through their own family companies. The supercharger doesn't put as much strain on the driveline components. The supercharger is easier to engineer onto a "V" motor. And they wouldn't want to be seen as copying/following Ford's lead.

[Lawsy]

Just because it's a "V" engine doesn't mean it can't be economically turboed. You don't have to have two turbos, and you don't have to have both banks (exhausts) connected before the turbo. A low pressure turbo system, up to 4-6 psi can operate off one bank without any detrimental effect on the engine. With today's engine management systems the computer can calibrate mixtures for each cylinder/bank according to demand/load. Exhausts can also be back pressure balanced with a simple "hot dog" muffler on one bank in place of the "missing" turbo.

I'm not saying we will see Expensive Daewoo do it - I think they will stay with the supercharger route for several reasons. They have ready access to superchargers through their own family companies. The supercharger doesn't put as much strain on the driveline components. The supercharger is easier to engineer onto a "V" motor. And they wouldn't want to be seen as copying/following Ford's lead.

Valid points there mate, but even so, there is extra engineering involved with doing that over a normal inline configuration turbo setup.

But I have heard that eventually there is always doing to be more wear on the 1 bank and can lead to course vibrations later on in the life of the engine (I haven't investigated this myself so I can't reference or prove this to you). What I do know is you can never fully balance the back pressure properly, without some sort of valving system, with 1 bank turbo'd. I've heard that it causes more problems than its worth.

But yeah, with a V its much cheaper and easier to just supercharge. This is the most viable option and from a business point of view, and would be the one I'd take if I was in there situation. I have heard that this new v6 does take quite well to supercharging over turbocharging anyway, as it likes to rev more than the old one.

Time will tell boys, time will tell.

I just want Ford to give us something special, I just have this feeling that something is in the works, dunno why.....

[Dr Z]

Lawsy, good posts with interesting insights though 3 clarifications:

1. The term "detuned" is clearly not used literally. We all know engines are tuned. "Detuned" is commonly used jargon among tuners to talk about cars being tuned at power levels less than what they could capably and reliably run. As for the XR6T, of course the 240kW is "detuned". The earlier concept versions had higher power levels. Manufacturers often "detune" because they are protecting their warranty exposures to the lowest common denominator of driver. In the XR6T's case, it was also a product placement issue in comparison to their V8 offerings since the XR6T, as evidenced by very simple aftermarket chip tuning can easily surpass the Boss engine for maximum power.

2. In spite of cost issues, concept cars are often tested for technical feasibility many months before product placement is assessed. This is why if you speak to the concept car testers and those involved in the support team, you find many concept cars just do not make it to the market for a variety of reasons, some of which can include, cost/pricing decisions. A rough estimate from one of the most respected automotive engineers in Australia of car variations that do not make it to market is about 80%-90%. It makes sense given that automotive business cost/benefit decisions are all about product testing and market placement analysis.

3. The Turbo V6 Alloytec IS real. There are a few still being run around Victoria. One of the versions is only 300kW when it was previously tuned at higher power levels. This was confirmed in a discussion with the same automotive engineer mentioned above who I cannot name for obvious reasons. Though if you ask around in the "right automotive social circles" in Victoria or even hang out in the local pubs with the right people, they will confirm it. Yes, it is unlikely to come to market due to the product placement issues I discussed in my earlier post.

Safe and happy driving...Dr Z.

[newxr]

Here is some more fuel to the fire

PEAK POWER PUZZLE

WHAT sort of power and torque could a twin turbo 3.6-litre

Alloytec V6 make? No-one is saying officially yet, but a clue may

have been provided during GM’s global product seminar at the

Paul Ricard race circuit in France this week.

A display of the company’s various powertrains included the

Alloytec engine. What was particularly interesting was the listing

of peak power at 276kW and 475Nm.

Compare that with the normally aspirated 190kW/340Nm 3.6-litre

Alloytec 190 or even the new 180kW 2.8-litre single turbo Alloytec

which Expensive Daewoo will build for Saab.

Could those mystery fi gures be for a twin turbo? We can certainly

say it’s beyond the engine’s normally aspirated boundaries.

If it is what the engine is capable of producing in twin-turbo form,

it will certainly get Ford thinking, as its turbo XR6 produces 240kW

and 450Nm, while the soon-to-be launched F6 Typhoon is rated at

270kW and 550Nm.

(Above from go-auto news room)

Is Expensive Daewoo working on a T Killer - Me thinks YES!

[Lawsy]

I understand what people mean when they say "detuned" but its just a common misuse of the word. It should never really be used appart from on the track where they litterally detune the engine when they have some sort of fault. Any other use is a miss use of that word, which I was trying to point out (although, I did a poor job).

This is a bit of hearsay, but isn't the alloytech weaker than our i6? I wouldn't think it would be as strong as our block, from pretty much all angles (bock construciton, layout, materials used etc). This is just in my mind from a physics point of view, I don't see it being capable of handling the torsional forces like our 4 litre 6.

Also...

If was holden, every time I saw the figure "550nm" I'd crap myself....

Think about that, having 90% of 550nm avail' from only 1500rpm, peaking between 3 - 4 and holding above 90% till 5500.

I don't care if they make a 300kw TT alloytech, it has no hope of keeping up with the above (its a peaky engine with no real low down torque, both wheels and motor agree with this). 475nm at 275kw sounds more like a 3 litre, or a NA gen3, rather than a turbocharged 3.6. Sounds like a blower to me, otherwise it would produce more twist (if 0.4 of a litre makes 75nm more with fewer kw, you be the judge).

[Lawsy]

On another note, think about how easily nizpro are producing 300rwkw cars to get an example of a reliable, every day hi po falcon.

I also think these figures you hear going around, or that have been 'leaked' out, about these 300kw alloytechs are nothing but fanciful marketting ploys. Does anyone else remember ford engineers saying "we saw up to 340kw while leaning the thing right out on the engine dyno". etc etc. These engineers got payed to sit there and play with the turbo 6 all day long to find the most reliable power figures around there given target. This is just Expensive Daewoo doing the same thing, but I would suggest more drastic measures were taken to obtian there figures.

Edited 23/09/04 02:41 AM by Lawsy

[HIPWRED]

Basically to make more torque you jsut need to increase cylinder pressure. You increase that by cramming more air + fuel in which is what a turbo does.

In my opinion multi cam engines are doughie down low because of the cylinder filling speed. The incoming air/fuel charge is moving more slowly through the larger inlets (as opposed to say a single inlet valve of the same size). For example to pump 20 litres per second through 10 inch pipe requires a lower flow velocity than a 2 inch pipe. Higher velocity means more momentum so it is easier for the intake charge to overcome the backpressure when the inlet valve opens (remember it opens before the cylinder has finished its exhaust stroke) and the cylinder fills more completely.

Can a turbo overcome this? yes, if it spools fast enough.... but to do that you need a fairly small and/or fairly reactive turbo - which is probably why the xr6t uses a ball bearing turbo like the GT series (its not small but its more reactive than earlier more traditional designs).

Will the turbo alloytech be more torquey down low? Assuming the same boost, and response time from the turbo, no. Put more boost in and its a different story ....

As a general rule, for each 14.6lb of boost you should get about a 100% power increase. This predicts about 260kW on the XR6T motor over the standard Barra motor so its not too far off the money, praticularly if ford tamed the tune a bit. So if you ran the same boost in a Expensive Daewoo alloytech you'd get a peak power to match.... if not slightly more.

On a different tack, I am sure both Expensive Daewoo and Ford have good memories of the 'supercar scare' that killed the Phase 4 Falcon GTHO and the XU-2 LJ Torana v8. Putting huge amounts of power within the reach of the masses can be fraught with danger from a commercial perspective.... but then again, back then seatbelts were an option, drum brakes were the norm and the biggest brake discs you could get were 270mm and solid and ABS.... only a dream.

[Dr Z]

Spot on Lawsy, the torque would be the weakness of an SV6 Alloytec Turbo compared to an XR6T derivative with the I6, thereby giving it less acceleration, all other things assumed equal. However, they are not equal, as current VZ Holden/HSV vehicles do not carry the mass of the BA, so it may be closer than we think.

Also, the primary sources of blown SV6 "mules" running around Victoria does not come from Holden/HSV engineers. If you think about that carefully, it has massively interesting implications.

Safe and happy driving...Dr Z.