Alot Of Crap, Not Alot Of Progress

[Guest Bathrone]

There continues to be alot of crap going on RE the XR6Turbo. It seems as usual with Ford, the acess to technical information is limited.

What I have found out is three well known performance tuners I know, (sworn not to say who they are) are having major issues with the ECU.

The ECU is the key to the whole machine, as I have been saying. And the ECU is highly advanced. No longer is it feasible to swap in aftermarket ECUs in cars other than motorsport only examples. Theres an article on Autospeed about this, something which I have been thinking on for some years now. Theres simply too much integration in the factory ECU, and theres simply not enough capability for an aftermarket to do the same quality job as an overall package. So your left needing to modify the factory ECU.

The guy who has complained about his aftermarket exhaust performance increase just goes to show self learning and ideal mapping of the ECU pegging back the modifications - just like most new ECU's do.

This shows the misunderstanding in the enthusiast community. Other things like people talk about the "need" for forged engine internals, when they have no engineering basis for that need if RPM limits dont change - but that statement requires an understanding of the forces within an otto cycle engine which I'd think most people dont know about. As is the "need" to drop the static compression ratio in developing more boost - great, lets make the Ford an offboost slug!

My experience with trying to obtain the XR6T compressor map just shows how hard it is to get real technical info, and not get BS from people who dont know better.

This is all to Ford's disadvantage too. Its always been a Ford motor costs more and is harder to tune up than a Chev motor. Ford are not supporting the enthusiast community.

And worse still, I cant get rid of the stone in my shoe about the driveline of the XR6T. It reeks of WRX all over again........

Still the whole package is very compelling and once the ECU is cracked, its my hope the sun will shine greatly on properly engineered modifications.

[harasn]

it can be a bit hard to get into the ECU's of these new Falcon. Where I work its easy but that's cause we developed it! Once you find the right program and hardware its very easy. If I could, I would start selling upgraded ECU programs but I like my job to much. But don't worry the ECU can be reprogrammed once the tuners fugure out how. As for a ford motor being more expensive to hot up than a chev, how? I have no experience in modifiying these motors but to get huge power out of any motor costs money, no matter what brand it is!

As for the turbo compressor map, how about removing your turbo to disect it. I don't think so. Play with your boost while watching your intake temp after the turbo and you should be able to figure it out reasonably well.

I do agree that alot of people recon that this and that part needs to go into the motor to make it better, the samething with brand names, with out knowing why. parts suppliers must love these people.

enjoy your car now and modify it later when its all been worked out. it goes good enough now standard for normal use!!!!

[Guest Raptor660]

Bathrone

I can understand why you shy away from fitting aftermarket ECU's on new technology engines like the XR6T. But and it is a big BUT, the top of the line aftermarket guys like Autronic and Motec models could drive every function on a manual XR6Turbo with little effort. (Auto models will probably still need to be piggybacked for the auto shift points to work). I have huge experience with Autronic engine management systems and less experience with Motec models.

For the last 5 years I have been working with Autronic ECU's installing, mapping and modifying outputs to suit specific requirements. I can tell you now, that both the VCT and electronic throttle could be driven with an SM2 with at very best new firmware code required from Autronic. I dont know the details of the electronic throttle yet, but if it is a stepper motor or a pulse width modulated servo motor these are simple to drive. Similar with VCT phasers. But getting real here, What does electronic throttle really provide?. Nothing I tell you. There is nothing wrong with a good old fashioned cable operated throttle body, except that drivability and fuel consumption etc can all be optimized with electronic control so that is why it's being introduced.

You can bet your balls, before the end of the year, people like AVO, Awesome engineering, nizpro etc will have mega engines with either fixed cam timing and cable operated throttles or complete integrated versions with aftermarket Autronic SM2's if the VCT and cam phasing aren't show stoppers. Mark my words.

[Falchoon]

I don't think Ford particularily wan't people to be messing with their stuff. If some gun aftermarket tuner starts pumping out 350kw XR6Ts and then they start blowing motors,gearboxes/diffs/other then it is going to reflect badly back on Ford. As will the power. People like Joshua Dowling (Drive.com.au editor) already criticise (unjustly so IMHO) Ford for having such powerful cars and equipping them with taxi brakes (don't worry about the fact that they are larger than SS Late model camira and you can option even bigger ones unlike the Commodore) so people like JD would continue to write drivel like this in the papers and all the do-gooders would go oooh aaahhh too powerful it's all Fords fault for having a car that you can modify so easily.

Plus Ford want to leave themselves room to improve for future models. If you can go out in a couple of years and buy a 2002 XR6T with an aftermarket chip (or whatever) that puts out 350kw who is going to want to buy the 2005 290kw version from Ford?

[Guest JESMAL]

If you can go out in a couple of years and buy a 2002 XR6T with an aftermarket chip (or whatever) that puts out 350kw who is going to want to buy the 2005 290kw version from Ford?

LOL....Falchoon.....I would!!!! A base 290kw means greater possibility of reaching greater heights when it comes to modifying right? Take my XR6 for example. Base model came with 162kw (auto). Now with the mods, it stands at around the 270kw (flywheel) or more. With the BA XR6T released, standard at 240kw, imagine if I spent the same amount of money for mods, what kind of beast I'd be having! :D

[Guest Bathrone]

I understand your point of view Flachoon.

I just think mate, imagine the number of WRX's sold due to glossy magazines and quoted peak KWs and quotes 400m times.

Most people dont heavily modify anyway - they do ECU retune, boost, exhaust, intake and leave it.

I just think Ford arent supporting enthusiasts with giving them information, and Im also worried Ford have specified a weak gearbox.

[Falchoon]

Ford are already selling more XR6Ts than they can make so why would they need to do anything else?

I don't think Subaru would of deliberately left the ECU etc open for every Tom, Dick and Harry to fiddle with (for all the same reasons outlined in my previous post), it's probably just due to different technology being used.

Like Raptor660 says, it's only a matter of time before someone does work out a way of reprogramming or overiding the XR6T ECU.

[harasn]

But getting real here, What does electronic throttle really provide?. Nothing I tell you. There is nothing wrong with a good old fashioned cable operated throttle body, except that drivability and fuel consumption etc can all be optimized with electronic control so that is why it's being introduced.

To say the Fly-By-Wire doesn't provide anything that the old throttle cable can provide is alittle too simple!

1) It can supply pedal feel for smooth throttle applications, not on and off like high powered cars can get, making them hard to drive smooth. On the same point it can allow small throttle openings up to half throttle and then more after that. By the way you don't need more than 40% throttle on the XR6T to get full boost.

2) It allows the auto trans to shift when its needed rather than when the throttle is in a certain point, allowing the gears to be selected better for how the car is being driven. Better driveability is what its all about these days.

3) It allows for free cruise control as all you have to do is fit the steering wheel controls and then enable the codes in the ECU and you have cruise control.

4) It makes emissions easier to control in real world conditions as the motor and trans know whats going on before it happens not after, so it can be controlled tighter compared to cable stuff.

5) With Fly-By-Wire we can also calibrate the engine operation to smooth out any driveline shunts and the like. The XR8 has a generally looser driveline than the turbo but with calibration of the thrittle control we have made the 8 as smooth as it is. Turbo needs the same thing but I think the boost makes it to hard!

These are just some of the things I can think of off the top of my head. hope this helps understand why we do things. we don't spend money for know need!

I would think that the aftermarket suppliers computers would have the capability to do some of these things but I don't think the dyno operators or the tuners could be bothered spending the time to get it all Mickey Mouse. It takes months for Ford to get it just right. Factory ECU with Fly-By-Wire is the way to go. Learn how to get into the ECU and retain the driveability of the car. Piggy backing stuff isn't the best way with ECU's either.

Mark

[Guest Raptor660]

Very true Mark,

I agree with everything you've said.

Grant.

[Guest esky]

There continues to be alot of crap going on RE the XR6Turbo. It seems as usual with Ford, the acess to technical information is limited.

What I have found out is three well known performance tuners I know, (sworn not to say who they are) are having major issues with the ECU.

The ECU is the key to the whole machine, as I have been saying. And the ECU is highly advanced. No longer is it feasible to swap in aftermarket ECUs in cars other than motorsport only examples. Theres an article on Autospeed about this, something which I have been thinking on for some years now. Theres simply too much integration in the factory ECU, and theres simply not enough capability for an aftermarket to do the same quality job as an overall package. So your left needing to modify the factory ECU.

The guy who has complained about his aftermarket exhaust performance increase just goes to show self learning and ideal mapping of the ECU pegging back the modifications - just like most new ECU's do.

This shows the misunderstanding in the enthusiast community. Other things like people talk about the "need" for forged engine internals, when they have no engineering basis for that need if RPM limits dont change - but that statement requires an understanding of the forces within an otto cycle engine which I'd think most people dont know about. As is the "need" to drop the static compression ratio in developing more boost - great, lets make the Ford an offboost slug!

My experience with trying to obtain the XR6T compressor map just shows how hard it is to get real technical info, and not get BS from people who dont know better.

This is all to Ford's disadvantage too. Its always been a Ford motor costs more and is harder to tune up than a Chev motor. Ford are not supporting the enthusiast community.

And worse still, I cant get rid of the stone in my shoe about the driveline of the XR6T. It reeks of WRX all over again........

Still the whole package is very compelling and once the ECU is cracked, its my hope the sun will shine greatly on properly engineered modifications.

I really don’t think that the after market tuners where on the minds of the Ford guys when designing the XR6T. I bet they were thinking more along the lines of warranty jobs. And I don’t blame them, as their reputation is as important to the product they sell.

I wouldn’t be to impatient with the after market guys. I’d rather wait until they’ve done a few to make sure all is right before handing over my hard earned.