after reading this thread I just had to put my two cents worth on this topic. I owned an xr6t auto and was a stocker. when an ss pulled up next to me I just had to have a go at them just for the fact most of them think they are unbeatable. my t was what a mech mate of mine called a freak car where it seemed to go better than most xrts I remember once I had a drag with a 285kw clubbie and I sh*t u not that I had it all over him. And we dragged 3 times. 3 to me none to him. as for ss they were not much of a challenge for the car unless they were modded. ive also been told that if you drive your car hard when u just get it new, the car,s computer recognises that you want it to go fast all the time. ive even raced other turbos and had it over them. providing they were stock. there must be other people on this thread that had a turbo like my old one which was a bit of a freak. I now own a typhoon and imho I think my old car would have givin the phoon a real good go to about 80-100kms then the phoon would just keep goin. But now hsv are using the 6litre ls2 and the ss are about to put in another varient of the 6litre in the ve Late model camira which will definately keep the fight on