Drive review: VZ SS vs BA2 XR8

[HSE2]

Also cast your minds back to AUI XR. 5% of total Falcon sales were XR, it steadily increased through to AUIII. Now it's anything around 15-20% I think. It's a huge increase. AU had shunt as well, although there were no internet forums anything like today for people to talk about it. Now with BA there are many more XR out there coupled with forums such as this one and it is ripe for people to express opinions, concerns and whatever else they like so it seems to some that BA is a dud, which it is not. It is the most comprehensively engineered Falcon ever with performance sedans capable of running with a HOey.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not correct. Shunt was the reason I joined forums in the first place and that was in 99. Guys like Falchoon predate me.

I had it my AU XR8 and I too learnt to drive around it until I fixed it. I then became involved with trying to get other users similar fixes. I can tell you the build of a person and the driving position does affect how bad this problem can be. That might sound stupid but by changing the seating position we were able to get very bad cars back to reasonable. At the end of the day though the smoothest way was to ride the clutch and that is unacceptable

While it is true these particular forums weren't around I can assure you places like Blueovalnews had a very strong contingent of diff concerned owners. In fact BON was the place many members first met Geoff Polites.

The percentages don't matter, the fact is this is a well known problem with Falcons that is in no way related to just BA. But that is the real problem.

What your describing isn't really shunt. Well it is and it isn't. The very best manuals in the world will do what you describe and really that level is acceptable.

The real issues are in cars that you can't depress the clutch with out the rear end going bang or if you don't ride the clutch on engagement the car shunts.

On a trailing throttle especially down hills the backlash is so sever you have to brake or knock it out of gear stop the racket at the rear end.

I have seen BAs where it isn't possible to do a three point turn and hear the radio the noise has been so loud. I know owners that have switched to autos because of their AU experience. In the club community and even in the general public there is dissatisfaction at the time this problem has been about. Just because you can’t hear them doesn’t me they aren't there.

I understand your point about the sweaky wheel gets the most oil and you are right and it can look unfair to an otherwise excellent product, but this is pretty basic stuff that has been around for a long time.

If this problem gets into MK2 after all that has happened in the past then Ford deserves the bashing they get and that really hurts me to say that.

There has always been a consistency issue between dealerships on the treatment of this issue, but with BA the situation looks to have got worse. Instead of those percentage increases mean a greater emphasise on drive quality they in fact equal a shift in warranty support for what is a know quality issue

[GlennAUII]

Also cast your minds back to AUI XR. 5% of total Falcon sales were XR, it steadily increased through to AUIII. Now it's anything around 15-20% I think. It's a huge increase.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

AU falcon XR sales were 6%, BA XR sales are 27% from memory

[sbr79]

Although, taken into account the safety features of a ford over a Expensive Daewoo and the lion, doesn't come close to the Blue Oval. I know an ambo who told me, 9 times out of 10 if a Late model camira has a serious crash they have to cut half the car away to get the poor person out. 9 times out of ten a ford in an accident and they still just open the door and get em out. Its a fact given to me from a person who treats these people day in day out. It was hinted within the ambo circle anyway that Expensive Daewoo made big profits before pre2002 , but still didn't invest on research in the cars safety aspects. They sold the cars by living off the V8 supercar reputation back then. Oh well just thought I would share this fact given to me. I for one would not of got my car, if the missus didn't hear this story from my ambo friend, its what she needed to hear.

[HSE2]

HSE2, I would contact Ford with the information you have given us all, as the manual point's out you should use the gears for braking in certain instances. I dare you to try going down Mount Hotham in an auto using the stock brakes on the Falcon and not using the gears, go on, then after that tell us how fun it was. But hey, the people who advise the publishers of the manual are mechanical engineers, what would they know compared to a truckie!

Paul

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hello Paul

My name is Ian

I don't have to contact Ford over an issue that is common sense.

Anyone trying to descend a step incline and relying on brakes alone is going to do one thing. Run out of them. Doesn't the manual say select low gear as opposed to slowing the car with that gear? Compression braking is about slowing the car and is very different to the situation you mention now and I might add the one I expressly mentioned in my reply to blonk.

It is true that BLONK gave a specific example about brake performance in his reply. I took acceptation to the flippant comment and perhaps my tip could have been constructed better but I was uncertain if his brake practices were restricted to his example or a driving practice employed everyday. The subsequent reply from you basically confirmed my theory of everyday driving practice which I will stand by.

I have been trained to drive in what is regarded as the best way to manage wear and performance and balance between the two. I am not a truck driver although I have to have a licensee to work where I do. I actually work with engineers in both mechanical electrical and chemical side of the cement manufacturing process. Some times I know who I would listen to most because many engineers don’t have a grasp of real world applications but if you would like to convey my thoughts on this matter to Ford please feel free to do so. Steve or Greg Hoinville especially will get a kick out of my engineer’s comments on the Ford side and perhaps Mr. Harrison on the FPV side although he isn’t driveline, but make sure you tell them where these comments came from and you will have to use my name.

They aren't asking you to use the gears to brake they are asking you to use lower gears to stop the gathering of momentum once you start your decline. That might sound like nitpicking and in a way it is but the simplest way to explain it is that the cars speed has first been managed by braking. Once slow enough you select the lower gear and then descend. The idea is not to accelerate so you take your foot off the accelerator and then you brake and release continually down the incline. This is definitely a form of engine braking but isn’t the same as compression braking. The difference between the two is another nitpick in itself but it is there.

Now we both know that modern brake systems won’t fade in everyday situations even on the steepest hills unless they are punished. By that I mean that you have raced down the hill probably accelerating where possible.

If you want to be sarcastic I can play too

You bloody well know rolling up to a set of lights is very different to descending a hill and that was the example you gave and the one I replied to. You example inferred normal every day driving which people certainly do get sucked into with this compression braking thinking and even though I was unsure about blonks definition yours left no doubt.

Holding a cars weight is very different to asking the driveline to REDUCE SPEED as in compression braking or in approaching a set of lights as per your example.

The shock load isn't placed on the driveline while ever the car is first slowed via the correct brake system and method. Now if you can’t see the merit in that there is nothing I can say to you.

If you can’t see the merit in having a dedicated system designed for the purpose of retardation do its job there is nothing I can do for you.

The only times gear reduction is mentioned is in a control method to reduce the chances of brake over temperature. Itself more related to poor braking practices, like people who have the brake applied the entire time not allowing a cooling off period.

If you can’t see the benefits of four wheels working instead of the driving wheels only and like wise the chance of compression lock up by relying on such a method the same applies.

But most of all if you can’t determine the difference between descending your mountain and rolling up to the traffic light as you originally said then I am puzzled but I do ask again why would you have the clutch depressed when you did such a thing?

Want to know what I really think? I bet you don’t use compression braking at all. Most people that claim to don’t. I bet you apply the brakes like normal people slowing the car changing down gears while you do and continuing to brake the entire time and that means the brake has been pressed the entire time and perhaps even a heel and toe application for good measure to equalize it out. If the engine does spike it is probably not very much and most likely very rarely. If at anytime you can feel the car lurch backwards after releasing the clutch that is hard on your equipment and in fact very dangerous. There is absolutely no point to that method of driving and yes that applies no matter what angle the car is on.

[eXtreme]

HSE2 Was that entire reply targeted to me, or was my section just the first paragraph and the rest to Blonk?

Paul

[Honest Gaza]

I know sh*t about cars boys....but if this was a TV debate....HSE2 is winning.

[FPV 521]

Although, taken into account the safety features of a ford over a Expensive Daewoo and the lion, doesn't come close to the Blue Oval. I know an ambo who told me, 9 times out of 10 if a Late model camira has a serious crash they have to cut half the car away to get the poor person out. 9 times out of ten a ford in an accident and they still just open the door and get em out. Its a fact given to me from a person who treats these people day in day out. It was hinted within the ambo circle anyway that Expensive Daewoo made big profits before pre2002  , but still didn't invest on research in the cars safety aspects. They sold the cars by living off the V8 supercar reputation back then. Oh well just thought I would share this fact given to me. I for one would not of got my car, if the missus didn't hear this story from my ambo friend, its what she needed to hear.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

very interesting

[HSE2]

I know sh*t about cars boys....but if this was a TV debate....HSE2 is winning.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No I am not.

And for why.

I used a "we" to imply something that isn't true by accident. If this were a debate I would be more embarrassed then Marcos Ambrose is right now because even I could cut me to pieces. Not to mention all the errors. Anyway, it’s not a competition or a debate.

Look I reacted very angrily to Blonks suggestion about people that are experiencing problems and I am not even one of those people. They have there own voice so if they feel the need to take task with him they should.

I take exception to anyone telling other to piss off as if to say their opinion isn't worthy of note. Other forums imply such thinking; this forum should be above that.

I really do suspect my definition of compression braking isn't everybody’s understanding of the meaning. Why is this even relevant to this thread? Well in the very early days Ford accused some owners of having a driving technique that promoted drive line issues and shock of horrors compression braking was one of the bad habits.

If there was a technical definition of the term I guess it would include any time said vehicle is being retarded by the use of its engine. That part is actually ok providing the speed doesn't get away on you and the thing is screaming its head off.

If the descent is so steep normally the best practice is to come to a complete stop at the top select low and down you go. You never engage the clutch during the decent. However the best practice is to always slow with the brake prior to the low gear selection. I call this engine braking. That is smart safe driving in a situation that is extreme.

Compression braking is normally associated but not exclusive to people that don't actually understand what is happening when the clutch is engage and the car is traveling faster then the gear set want to travel at the RMP at the time. It slows the car alright but this isn't a smart way of operating.

Rule of thumb time.

If at any time you or your passengers can feel retardation through selecting a lower gear on the exact moment of engagement that is poor driving imo. That is hard on your equipment for no reason. The vast majority of people that I come across are changing down gears while continuing to modulate brake applications. That is the correct method of braking IMO. It’s done at the same time as the gear selection.

To answer your question Paul and I do still having trouble understand the question, no I definitely don't role up to the lights with my foot flat to the floor on the clutch. I am not even sure I understand why you would think that would be an accepted method of car control.

Best practice to your example.

1. Read the traffic situation and predict the movement and stopping sequence. The car is most efficient if it doesn't have to stop.

2. Remove the foot from the accelerator with the car in gear

3. Apply brake modulation with the intent to retard progress with car still in gear

4. Once the speed is approaching the shift down point (road speed too low for gear speed) shift down while still applying brake application if a stop situation is still likely

5. If the need repeats step four until the car is either stopped or the lights have changed or you have reached the lowest forward ratio available

6. If the car does come to a complete stop I select neutral and apply the park brake with the button depressed (I.E. not ratchet application)

Never at any stage was the car out of gear until at a complete standstill and never at any stage was the driveline asked to retard the cars momentum and weight. The retardation was always done with the brake system. It allows for full ABS function with out hindrance and if the car is fitted with EBD and SC gives those systems every chance of working to there full potential. At all times you are in gear ready to accelerate when the need arises but the difference is in the matching of road and car speed slightly below rather then slightly above compression engagement points.

That’s my method and my definition.

[Blonk]

HSE2

I am an engineer (qualified) and currently employed in the industry...

And I will do whatevr I goddamn like with my gearbox whether you like it or not and if it blows I will buy another one... A better one.... I would love to see your technique you so avidly describe in your cute childlike manner... I would also like to see your face sitting in the passengers seat as I come down a mountain (fast) with you giving me "driving tips" whilst sh*ttting your pants... Any weather mind you ... Hotham in winter sounds good.. Ice on road and using brakes sounds like a good way to meet a tree... If you are not loaded (engine Power or engine brake)at all times on the back wheels you will meet some very nice panel beaters my freind.... good luck to you and go have a cry now....

And yes I am even more dumber after sitting through another tyrade from you....

[Blonk]

Can you post one link to back up anything you say or is this just happening in your mind..... Quantify your belief