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Retarded timing


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Its may actually be a phaser then.   If it doesn’t solve the issue then you wont have many options left other then locking the VCT to a fixed position.   I don’t see it as masking

So yep they’ve tried all that hence my advice to lock the cam timing.

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Good luck with it all mate, hope you get there and solve the problem.

 

I run a B&M supercooler between my radiator and intercooler and just use my thermo fans to provide the cooling. Works ok, could be better. Was simple and easy for me to make fit etc so I just went for it.

 

1 hour ago, Puffwagon said:

You missed the point keefballs was making Frank. Putting cam gears in is not how you fix a cam timing issue.

Puff I think its clear in his posts even though he is not writing them well, that the cam timing is not the issue. We all know that if this out more then a few teeth the motor wont run and you may even encounter piston to valve clearance issues.

 

As I understand the post, they seem to be struggling with the variable cam timing advance and retard control of the inlet and exhaust cam phases.

 

If you lock the cams at   X   degree for both inlet and exhaust then the VCT control issues will no longer be there, and if this is the problem it will be solved.

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On 12/08/2021 at 11:58 AM, Typhoon said:

I do see he notes the issue was there on his stock motor too, which is not that uncommon, phasers can malfunction due to lack of oil changes and many other reasons to on a stock engine.

 

If the actual cam timing can not be controlled and all reasonable attempts have been made to fix it. Locking the cam timing will solve the problem. 
 

The problem wont be there any longer because the cam angle physically can not change due to the lock outs being in place.

I locked the timing and wallah, fixed the stalling issue. Car ran no problems at all... for a little bit haha just a little rattle now, I'll explain below, nothing major. 

 

I bought an NA head, which I'm going to build up instead of transferring from the turbo head. Going to buy a new set of Valve Springs and Turbo exhaust Valves, maybe cams but at this stage, happy to keep stock cams. Even though I made sure all the galleries were clear of debris in the OG head, I can't confirm if the gaps are correct or out. So, instead of wasting time, I'm doing what I mentioned above. I do have rattle from the top drivers side behind the timing cover, so at the moment, I'm assuming it's the Atomic timing chain tensioner. I got a stock one to replace it. Only happens between 2000-2500rpms in any gear. But yeah, won't know until I pull it all off lol. 

 

Again, thanks for the advice only locking the timing. Works a treat, only difference I notice was the sound of the car.

 

I appreciate everyone else's time into this matter, it gave me reassurance on everything; however, locking the timing worked best in this situation. Hopefully building this new head, I'll be timing issue free. 

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Good to hear that your stalling problems have been resolved.

 

Could you post up a data log of the original problem? 

 

PM me if you prefer.

 

I am keen to see if you were indeed having ignition timing problems. Doubt it.

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I believe it’s the cam caps, check to see if there’s scoring. If they’re not on correctly and in order they’ll ruin your day.

 

I’ve spent a further 8.9k diving deep into this. So I bought an NA head and changing over the exhaust valves, springs, with new headstuds and then chucking it on. But waiting on parts to arrive. I’m not taking anything from my Turbo head and not using the same headstuds. I’ve changed absolutely everything lol. Except the head. I believe I’ll be able to unlock the timing and this issue will be fixed, but won’t know until the head is completed. 

6015D505-C996-4FDE-AE8B-9C3CE5DC51B2.jpeg

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Hahaha if your builder is human, mistakes can happen.

🤣🤣🤣🤣 I was told this common problem was rare. Then when searching the internet I’ve come across a lot, had discussions like this thread which confirms that I’ve done everything prior to locking the cams. 
 

Locking the cams does fix the issue, just no one in the tuner world can give me a definite answer if this is a bandaid solution or an actual fix, for that reason alone, that’s why I bought an NA head. Parts are cheap, so then it’ll be over 10.5-11k on this issue. Haha :(((( 

 

Keep me posted on how yours turns out.

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Wont be the cam caps, wont be the OCVs.

 

Disable the VCT in ESP and see if that helps. Can the VCT maintain target at all or is it just when the oil is hot?

 

What oil temps are you seeing?

 

Does it only stall when hot after a WOT?


Is the engines oiling system still stock or has oil flow to the head been restricted? 

 

Noise at idle is consistent with a phaser struggling to work, a blocked oil gallery can also cause this. 

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I'm not sure man, my tuner is working it out. They've been really good talking to all the right people to find the problem, no hint of trying to mask it by just locking the timing.

 

Phasers are being replaced. Oiling is stock, and the right weight oil is being used for the clearances.

 

Apparently the intake cam is all over the place on idle when it's hot, and it's noisy on idle. Oil galleries should be ok, its had the run in oil changed out already. They've done a very controlled and deliberate run in process, which is good to see.

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Its may actually be a phaser then.

 

If it doesn’t solve the issue then you wont have many options left other then locking the VCT to a fixed position.

 

I don’t see it as masking the problem, it is what it is.

 

Modified cars! 

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No man, it'll get new crow lifters next week. Hopefully it takes care of the noise. It's a bit frustrating when the head was fully rebuilt. Why would you throw 200k km lifters back in? My tuner is charging the engine builder for the labour, which is good

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28 minutes ago, Tom Tucker said:

Why would you throw 200k km lifters back in?

 

If you are asking this you'd be plum shocked at some of the sh*t that "workshops" do. Even with new lifters, there's more to it than just chucking them in and calling it a day. Let us know how much quieter it gets, as I'm interested in the outcome.

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