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brian.brigg

BorgWarner EFR twin scroll and high mount manifold

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Hi everybody. I'm new to the forum and to Falcon Turbos and have a couple of questions.

 

What size BorgWarner EFR is the equivalent of, or just above, the stock FG XR6 turbo? I'm looking for good throttle response in a daily driver with 350 RWKW so I don't need anything huge. I figure the lighter wheels, ceramic bearings and twin scroll turbine housing should all help minimise any turbo lag.

 

I've heard good things about the internal wastegate EFRs but nothing specific about the dual wastegate in the twin scrolls. . Would they work okay for my needs?

 

I plan to use a high mount split T04 manifold to take advantage of the twin scroll turbine housing. Does this higher mounting affect the efficiency of the water cooling, particularly the thermo-siphoning effect when the engine is shut down?

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:Welcome2FordXR6t:

 

no point going with a twin scroll turbine housing without a twin scroll outlet from the exhaust manifold which accurately splits the exhaust pulses.

 

This post has all the specifications for the stock turbocharger:

 

you can just barely make 350rwkw on a stock FG with all bolt ons and E85, which makes it not perfect for a daily, obviously.

 

Water cooling etc is fine with a high/low/whatever mount turbo.

 

EFR turbo's are known to be a pain in the butt to fit (cost and effort), is the problem.

 

A GTX3576R is the perfect turbo for what you're looking at - similar spec to the stock turbocharger so spools just as quickly but it's a better flowing design so it holds better up in the high revs so you can make more power. 350 would be a very nice streeter on a GTX3576R.

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that's a very expensive way to achieve your goals.

I agree with Keith, gtx3576 with standard exhaust manifold and ported stock exhaust housing.

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I have the Gtx3576 on e85 with full exhaust and im at 409rwkw. The gen 2 though ive seen ppl get about 420. I dont think theres a better combo on the street. Its an animal down low!

Twins are just unnecessary now days.

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I get the idea that this will cost more but I am comfortable with spending the money to get what I want. Coming from NA V8s in my younger days I do like the instant urge from a well built engine. Now that I'm older and lazier an automatic with six speeds sounds real good. My car choices come down to a Late model camira with a supercharged LS or a nice XR6 Turbo.

 

Everything that I have seen with comparison between roughly equivalent BW EFR turbos and the Garrett turbos always makes the point that the BW spools up quicker, even with single scroll so another alternative would be the stock manifold modified to the T4 flange but I am prepared to spend the money on a good twin scroll manifold as long as I can get boost to come in 500rpm sooner which is what the twin scroll is supposed to do.

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I dont know man, I think your chasing turbo theory rather than whats been achieved. Have you driven an FG or later auto? They are not laggy at all.

 

Heaps of guys come in here having read stuff and think they have figured out a new magical pathway ... your best bet would be to chat to an experienced barra tuner eg. @JETURBO

 

In practival terms I dont think you will notice any difference from what you are proposing versus a gtx 3576.

 

By the way, I have tried many turbos including the gtx 3576. Once it comes on boost it still feels slow compared to a bigger turbo - I had a precision 6235, but it is addictively fun. I now use an efr which spools as quick/quicker than the gtx but still goes 480rwkw - limited by 1000cc injectors. In a manual that's best of both approaches, but as always there are trade-offs.

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Do you have a built motor to get the most out of that efr? 

I really like the look of the G35 900. 62mm that allegedly flows 900hp sounds like the perfect size to me if you wanted to step up from the 58mm gen 2 gtx3576 

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Just oil pump, head studs and valve springs. Not looking for dyno-heroics, just good driveability with the best possible throttle response.

 

On 25/05/2020 at 12:11 PM, sixman said:
I dont know man, I think your chasing turbo theory rather than whats been achieved. Have you driven an FG or later auto? They are not laggy at all.
 
Heaps of guys come in here having read stuff and think they have figured out a new magical pathway ... your best bet would be to chat to an experienced barra tuner eg. [mention=15792]JETURBO[/mention]
 
In practival terms I dont think you will notice any difference from what you are proposing versus a gtx 3576.
 
By the way, I have tried many turbos including the gtx 3576. Once it comes on boost it still feels slow compared to a bigger turbo - I had a precision 6235, but it is addictively fun. I now use an efr which spools as quick/quicker than the gtx but still goes 480rwkw - limited by 1000cc injectors. In a manual that's best of both approaches, but as always there are trade-offs.

You're probably right. I have never driven a stock XR6 Turbo having spent the last 30 odd years overseas. All my previous experience, back in my rev-head days, was with V8s. That culminated in a nicely built half inch stroked 440 (giving 511 cubes) finding its place in my VJ Charger in front of a built 770 auto. The massive torque available low down was very addictive. The tyre budget approaching my yearly income every six months along with fuel costs were much less addictive, of course.

Looking at the EFR reviews is okay, but everything I've found is smaller and revvier engines with guys going for huge power. Guys are swapping their EFR 8374s for EFR 9180s on 2JZ or K24 engines and so forth. The one consistent thing in the reviews is that they praise the quick spooling at lower revs but they are comparing against the GTX 3584 or even bigger Garretts. The 3584 can get 1,000hp on a built Barra.

The big difference is that the Barra moves a lot of air compared to anything an EFR reviewer that I have been able to find has under the bonnet. The long stroke gives good torque at low RPM so maybe the ultimate in quick spooling is not such a big thing.

Looking at the BW Matchbot all of the bigger turbos with my power level dialled into the boost show the Barra falling off the bottom of the compressor map over about 3500rpm because it doesn't take much boost to get a Barra to 350kw at the wheels. The smaller turbo's, like the 7670 which has a map pretty close to the GTX3576 with a bit more headroom for higher boost, give slightly better results but don't push enough air to get any real boost at 6000rpm. That's why I was wondering which one I should choose. Looking at it more shows that I'm probably chasing a rainbow.

That said, what is the recipe for 350kw at the wheels, on ULP 91 since I would be heading out west frequently and 98 is often hard to find, never mind E85. I want to keep stock internals with a fully built oil pump and would be way oversized on the intercooler, Plazmaman 1400 or similar with separate oil and transmission coolers because it gets hot out in the bush. Springs and those nice titanium retainers for good valve control as well as a set of head studs would be put in as well as a Streetfighter internal fuel pump/surge tank rated to 1000hp and perhaps ID1050 injectors or similar. Fuel pressure regulator would be the Turbosmart 1200 so it can adjust for the manifold pressure.

A multitune so I can have one for 98, one for ULP91, one for the missus and one for valets is something I would like.

I want the car to be as quiet as possible given a CAI will be fitted so a plumb back BOV will be used and I'm hoping

So what's my turbo?

One last question is what happens when you go off the end of the compressor map? Can this lead to turbo overspeed?

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not sure if you'll have much luck making 350kW with a fast spooling turbo on 91... but of course when you're in a situation with 91 only, you can make less power and still be fine on the 91 only tune.

 

It'll be quite quiet if you stick with the enclosed CAI and plumb back BOV and a decent set of mufflers in the exhaust after the cat.

 

your turbo is definitely best to be a GTX3576R as it makes mid 20's of boost in the mid (if you want it) falling over to about 17-18psi in the high revs of a Barra, so it's not out of efficiency or your target boost if you just ramp up to 15-16 and make 350kW, with that boost holding steady all the way through the rev range

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E85! At least get a tune for it and go out of your way to get it even as a treat. Builds power earlier, harder and for longer, my 98 tune tapers off while the e85 holds on for longer. Top end is 46rwkw difference but mid range is more like 65rwkw. This is at 21psi.

 

Feels lame at 363rwkw on 98, can flog it more but it feels more alive on the e85, grip really becomes an issue and feathering/feeding the throttle is an absolute must.

 

Ive been wondering if theres something with more power higher up but still the savage low down of the gtx3576 but doesnt seem to be, or the cost of changing rear housings or exhaust manifolds makes it not worth it for the gains.

 

Also can get plenty in trouble as it is on the street with one of these anyway...

 

From what u say u want u need e85 to get there even as I say its for weekends or something.

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