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Ralph Wiggum

Diy Tuning

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Hi, I have purchased pcmtec. I have been looking at my PCM tune provided with the car. its running a gtx3582r and 1000cc injectors, ford fg, stock motor. 390rwkw.

 

I can monitor air/fuel ratios.

 

Boost is targeted to dropoff after 4500 rpms (auF16459).  I thought with a turbo car, boost would be kept to the same until redline? maybe its a strategy to save the gearbox. My spark table looks the same as stock (via pcmtec compare function) but the fuel table (auF0172) has been changed.

 

Can anyone provide advice on this? Anything I can change?

 

boost.png

fuel.png

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If you start to change things how will you know if you’ve got a desired result for input ? 

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I’m saying what are you trying to change ? 

 

If you change your fuelling what are you changing it to and why ?

how will you know exactly when you’ve hit the mark you want to hit ?

 

Why are you going to change your boost target and what will you change it to and why ? 

 

There’s a plethora of factors you need to understand and ascertain when making changes, once you’ve made a change how will you know it actually was a positive gain vs what you “think” is a gain 

 

To help anyone out who’s having a “Stab” n go Tune take this on board 

 

The numbers you see in a Tune are unique to the car and hardware, The target in the tune may be very different to the target needed for the end tune goal 

 

Know what the tune is requesting AND why and Data log direct changes to the vehicle..... Yes a majority you won’t “Feel” in your bum Dyno or maybe to small for your $30 boost Gauge and $150 AFR gauge 

 

Remember if you’re trying to “Better” a professional workshops tune make sure you have the correct equipment and skill to know you actually have with irrefutable Data generation ( again your bum Dyno won’t capture this ) 

 

Be mindful that if workshops could tune cars on the street with less than a few hundred bucks worth of equipment they would have ...... ;) 

 

Remember tune cells aren’t always what they “Seem” to be on face value as they nearly all interact with other cells and the Falcon is always utilising multiple cells at any one time 

 

Mechanical hardware needs to work with electronic input and mechanical will always win if it’s not correct, some situations can still net a target result which may show weird numbers in a cell ;) 

 

just sayn 

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I’m not being condescending, even if that’s how it reads but I’m giving away a bunch of truth bombs people can take on board and hopefully understand why I’ve said what I have :) 

 

I've done plenty of “Street tuning” in the past and now I understand why it was so far from purposeful for the total task of “Tuning” correctly. Yeh use it to set up some basics but you’ll see why a Dyno is worth every cent when you use one and you will also then see why Performance workshops do the things they do in a tune on a specific car if you examine and R&D the crap out of it .... on the assumption the performance workshop had done a good job of the custom tune and modifications on said vehicle 

 

if done correctly any change you make should have a negative result ;)  

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There's is nothing wrong with road tuning if done correctly. Just need to make sure you collect the right data so you know you're heading in the right direction and not pushing the limits of engine or hardware.

Many cars get road tuned and set up on the street then checked and finished on the dyno.

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My point is more towards the fact of when will you know a vehicle’s hardware limitations in regards to efficiency with a bum Dyno ? 

 

You don't, you can’t measure that accurately without a tool that’s showing variations within 1 hp

 

This is the purpose of a Dyno, it’s an expensive tool to tune efficiency, again if we could get away without having to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on this tool and just hire one for a final pull to grab a number and a dyno sheet we would :)  

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15 hours ago, BigKriss said:

Can anyone provide advice on this? Anything I can change?

Friend, you can change anything you want as long as your happy to live with the consequences.

 

I do want to know though, how rich is your car running on a full throttle pull with your wide-band readouts?

Your desired fuel table is....somewhat rich

 

but as jet said there not allways representative of what the cars doing, perhaps the tuner did this in a way to not play around with other tables that will afect the engines fueling. many tables, many calculations.

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I will bet my left nut it is tuned in open loop like 95% of the cars out there and your desired boost table is ignored. Also that your fueling table is used to fudge around injector data that is not correct. I highly doubt it is running anywhere near 0.65 lambda.

 

Need to hire a dyno for a day, use a properly calibrated wideband, knock ears etc if you want to improve on the quality of the tune.

 

You could dial in the injectors better using LTFT only, but without knowing your starting point you will likely lean the vehicle out causing issues. 

 

Dyno and good datalogging equipment that you can trust is the key.

Edited by rollex

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2 minutes ago, rollex said:

I will bet my left nut it is tuned in open loop like 95% of the cars out there and your desired boost table is ignored. Also that your fueling table is used to fudge around injector data that is not correct. I highly doubt it is running anywhere near 0.65 lambda.

And I'll bet my right nut your 100% correct.

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17 hours ago, BigKriss said:

Hi, I have purchased pcmtec. I have been looking at my PCM tune provided with the car. its running a gtx3582r and 1000cc injectors, ford fg, stock motor. 390rwkw.

 

I can monitor air/fuel ratios.

 

Boost is targeted to dropoff after 4500 rpms (auF16459).  I thought with a turbo car, boost would be kept to the same until redline? maybe its a strategy to save the gearbox. My spark table looks the same as stock (via pcmtec compare function) but the fuel table (auF0172) has been changed.

 

Can anyone provide advice on this? Anything I can change?

 

boost.png

fuel.png

 

As @rollex said it is probably tuned in open loop, most tuners seem to do that.

 

Go onto the PCMTec forums and have a look at Roll's posts in HOWTO section on Open Loop Boost Control. See if your car is setup to for Open Loop boost control.

 

I prefer Closed Loop boost control but basically you will have to set up the Wastegate Duty cycle to be accurate for the desired boost you are running anyway. You can get reasonable close by switching the car back into Open Loop, making small changes to the boost you desire and log the Wastegate duty cycle to get the approximate numbers required in the Wastegate Duty Cycle table. Populate table with those numbers and repeat for different boost levels. Fair bit of work.

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Dyno numbers don't mean much unless you have the times to back it up at track.

If you have the right monitoring hardware, knock sensors etc, you can normally feel how a car is responding to various tune changes. I'm more talking about WOT and hi airload areas here, our engines are knock limited so in theory will hit a knock limit not a power limit.

Obviously depends on fuel and rpm too.

 

If you think you can dial a car in perfectly on a constant ramp rate and think this is going to show all real world conditions then you're dreaming.

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1 hour ago, NA_TURBO said:

Dyno numbers don't mean much unless you have the times to back it up at track.

 

With out being rude this isn’t a Drag debate it’s a factual conversation regarding a calibrated tuning tool 


If you have the right monitoring hardware, knock sensors etc, you can normally feel how a car is responding to various tune changes.

 

Knock detection hardware is monitoring frequency noise associated with knock conditions, they can NOT detect if you’ve saturated a timing mark especially with knock reduction fuels - Again you will not “feel” this with a bum Dyno 

 

I'm more talking about WOT and hi airload areas here, our engines are knock limited so in theory will hit a knock limit not a power limit.

 

Anyone tuning a car to a knock event ONLY isn’t maximising a vehicle’s spark efficiency, remember why we use Knock frequency events ..... Again you will see this on a accurately plotted Torque graph on the Dyno 

Obviously depends on fuel and rpm too.

 

If you think you can dial a car in perfectly on a constant ramp rate and think this is going to show all real world conditions then you're dreaming.

 

Do you think all tuning is done via just power runs ? it’s not hence why steady state tuning is an actual “Thing” 

 

 

The more you know hey ....... 

Again it’s a highly calibrated tuning tool that’s utilised to it’s full capacity to dial a tune in under ALL conditions 

Maybe some people aren’t using their equipment to the full capacity and this wouldn’t surprise me as we heard last week regarding the AWD Dyno issue that’s an easy workaround but the operator didn’t understand clearly. 

 

again street tuning is 1 thing, Dyno tuning is another and it’s those things you may think you have a grasp of on the street that will show up incorrectly on a calibrated tuning tool.....who’s wrong ? 

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I don't think anyone is wrong, and I didn't mean it to come across as knock sensors being able to tell you that you've exceeded a torque/spark limit.

I know of lots of big powered cars that have been street tuned and finished with the dyno.

Street tuning has it's place, but there's lots of things that you will feel on the street that a dyno won't pick up. You can't say that street tuning is useless.

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I always data log on the street after a Dyno tune to make sure I’m seeing what I want but that’s as far as it goes 

 

The street part is majority to check for drivability manners and for a decent 1-2-3 WOT pull 

 

The bigger the target power the less you see on the street when data logging as it’s just wheel spin and crazy speeds, all the more reason to do it where you can gain traction and do it safely on the Dyno 

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I've got to say I agree with Jet. The street might be fine for just getting the car running after some hardware changes, but I'd never be really doing any power stuff on the street. It's too inaccurate and just plain dangerous with any decent power. There's just too many factors at play and quite frankly I don't want to go directly past go, to jail in the big house The real work should always be done on a calibrated tool that's repeatable run after run which nobody should dispute.

One of my best mates just added a hub dyno to his arsenal and coming from a 4wd chassis dyno, the accuracy is mind blowing. We were really blown away with the repeatability of results and very finite changes you could actually see how the car was (or wasn't) responding. On a rolling road, they were often masked due to traction limitations, tire temperatures etc. I'm not surprised most shops now are going the hub route.

It's always good to check a car on the street afterwards as after all, they dont live on the dyno and driveability is key. Again, hard to give anything on the street a big hit, as your either torching tyres or rolling on speeds that Mr Plod wouldn't be happy about.

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That is the other thing, a roller dyno is so far from a proper load cell dyno. You really need a proper load cell to hit all possible cells and hold the car in a cell long enough to get steady state data. The repeatability of a roller dyno is trash as well, tyre temps, pressures and just plain position of the wheel on the roller all affect it too much. Obviously better than street tuning, but if you are going to find the time to hire a dyno, at least hire a modern load cell one.

 

The oem calibrators I've spoken to said it takes almost a second within each load point for the engine to reach true steady state, they said you can see it in the data that if it isn't held there long enough the data you get is wrong.

 

Where street tuning (or logging really) shines is creating a scatter plot of rpm vs load. You can then see if all you have properly scaled the breakpoints of the tables to match where you spend the majority of time. If the scatter plot is all bunched up in one corner you can quickly see where you should be rescaling and changing the break points. We added a "reinterpolate all referenced tables" function in the pcmtec editor exactly for this function, it auto re calculates all the cells to match the new axis, and when an axis is shared with multiple tables it does the whole lot for you.

Edited by rollex

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I agree with both of you,

I was just stating the fact you cannot overlook the importance of street tuning, it has it's place as does dyno tuning.

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Anyone know if a Barra ecu can be used on a completely different engine? As you can change the number of cylinders and firing order. It would need a different crank trigger and obviously a complete remap of the speed density tables but could it be possible?  

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Yes you can change the firing order and you can change the number of cylinders but you can't change how many outputs there are. Eg a V8 ECU could run an 8 or 6. But a 6 cyl ECU can only run a 6 cyl.

 

It would be fairly tricky to setup but it is possible.

 

There are people running the single cam motor from the AU off the barra PCM. There is a video on youtube showing how it worked. The engines are similar enough that it literally starts and runs without touching the speed density (surprised me). The VE must be withint 25% of the barra which means the O2 trims will get it close enough to idle and run, wouldn't want to give it a WOT run though.

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