Pinging,knocking,detenation

[shockwavexr6t]

Pinging= Bad tuning

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Or bad fuel,

Sick of hearing this excuse from tuners what a joke

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why?

A fuel which has been sitting for a period of time will start to lose octane points, get moisture in it and be useless, or not 'optimum'

As everyone always says, go to a servo who turns over alot of fuel. Why say this if there is no merrit to it??

Then there are the dodgey blokes who 'water' there fuel down with crap.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A car shouldnt be tuned to the point where if the fuel isnt 100% its going to ping its head off if a tuner cant tune a car without it pinging I suggest another tuner

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

xrtwpn,

but doesn't a tuner push the tune to find its limit ie pinging then back if off. so that maximun tune will be safe?

[shockwavexr6t]

does this mean tuners disable knock sensor when tuning a car to get the maximum of the tune. ie I Guess this would aply for people using the edit then activate knock sensor after tune to protect motor.

Then why do we all need three maps with our edit's?

Shouldn't we just need one tune!

Tune the car to its full potention with currents mods ie 300rwkws then the knock senor will take over retart timing when needed ie bad fuel, heat,air density,

why do you have to change tune maps to compensate for this?

No saying 3 different maps is good? just curious

cheers

shockwavexr6t

[DBOSS]

Pinging= Bad tuning

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Or bad fuel,

Sick of hearing this excuse from tuners what a joke

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why?

A fuel which has been sitting for a period of time will start to lose octane points, get moisture in it and be useless, or not 'optimum'

As everyone always says, go to a servo who turns over alot of fuel. Why say this if there is no merrit to it??

Then there are the dodgey blokes who 'water' there fuel down with crap.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A car shouldnt be tuned to the point where if the fuel isnt 100% its going to ping its head off if a tuner cant tune a car without it pinging I suggest another tuner

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Spot on Adam

[F6 UTE]

I actually agree on the principal.

I clarify though, not bad tuning, bad attitude toward tuning..

I can't run 95 ron in either of my tunes.. When we ran out of Ultimate, It sucked big time.. One tune is getting rectified as we speak though.. The other I was told is running enabled knock sensors, so go figure?????

[gogo]

Pinging= Bad tuning

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Or bad fuel,

Sick of hearing this excuse from tuners what a joke

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why?

A fuel which has been sitting for a period of time will start to lose octane points, get moisture in it and be useless, or not 'optimum'

As everyone always says, go to a servo who turns over alot of fuel. Why say this if there is no merrit to it??

Then there are the dodgey blokes who 'water' there fuel down with crap.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A car shouldnt be tuned to the point where if the fuel isnt 100% its going to ping its head off if a tuner cant tune a car without it pinging I suggest another tuner

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Spot on Adam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Gents,

Lets get one basic fact straight. ANY car with ANY tune will ping if the quality of fuel is poor enough. This is a fact.

When we go to a tuner for a custom tune - the goal of this is often to maximise the torque and resultant power. I have had my car tuned (post Edit) by both HPF and Nizpro who I beleive are two of the best in the country (if not the best). In both cases my car was tuned using 98 octane fuel, and my primary maps were specifically tuned (at my request) for 98 octane fuel.

There is a very simple reason for this - it is possible to achieve better power and higher efficiencies through more advanced timing. If I were to put 95 octane fuel in my car when running a 98 map - I would expect my car to ping from time to time until the knock protection retarded timing. If it didn't then the tuner has NOT done their job correctly.

If you get a bad batch of fuel - then by rights the tune should be reflashed for one to cope with poor fuel, rather than relying on the knock control as this will only retard timing when knock is detected (ie already happening), or drive the car easily until the fuel is replaced.

If the quality of fuel is poor enough - then the knock control will not be able to take out sufficient timing to prevent the pinging from occurring. More aggressive timing settings on our peak power 98 maps are obviously going to suffer from this with a smaller drop in fuel quality than a more conservative map.

Bottom line is if you want a map that will be far more tolerant of poor fuel - expect less power than could be acheive with a more agressive map. This has nothing to do with the quality of the tuner, it is just a basic fact.

As a specific example on my '98 octane' map my car produced 331rwkw, but with several degrees taken out for a '95 octane' map at the approximately same rpm and boost at peak power the car 'only' made 309rwkw.

As consumers we just need to be careful about making sure tuners are not just using this as a blind excuse, but need to recognise that poor fuel will inescapably impact the performance of a highly tuned car.

my 2c...

Cheers,

Ben.

[Guest xrtwpn]

Pinging= Bad tuning

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Or bad fuel,

Sick of hearing this excuse from tuners what a joke

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why?

A fuel which has been sitting for a period of time will start to lose octane points, get moisture in it and be useless, or not 'optimum'

As everyone always says, go to a servo who turns over alot of fuel. Why say this if there is no merrit to it??

Then there are the dodgey blokes who 'water' there fuel down with crap.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A car shouldnt be tuned to the point where if the fuel isnt 100% its going to ping its head off if a tuner cant tune a car without it pinging I suggest another tuner

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

xrtwpn,

but doesn't a tuner push the tune to find its limit ie pinging then back if off. so that maximun tune will be safe?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes but it shouldnt be tuned just below the point of pinging they should allow for thins like air temp fuel and so on not just blame it on things like that

Alot fo tuners use these factors as excuses

The 3 tunes arent made for for things like pinging they are made to give you more options

[Guest xrtwpn]

Pinging= Bad tuning

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Or bad fuel,

Sick of hearing this excuse from tuners what a joke

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why?

A fuel which has been sitting for a period of time will start to lose octane points, get moisture in it and be useless, or not 'optimum'

As everyone always says, go to a servo who turns over alot of fuel. Why say this if there is no merrit to it??

Then there are the dodgey blokes who 'water' there fuel down with crap.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A car shouldnt be tuned to the point where if the fuel isnt 100% its going to ping its head off if a tuner cant tune a car without it pinging I suggest another tuner

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Spot on Adam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As a specific example on my '98 octane' map my car produced 331rwkw, but with several degrees taken out for a '95 octane' map at the approximately same rpm and boost at peak power the car 'only' made 309rwkw.

Ben.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It may have that power but it still slow as I think you should join us another friday night so me and craig can laugh at you again

[shockwavexr6t]

Pinging= Bad tuning

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Or bad fuel,

Sick of hearing this excuse from tuners what a joke

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why?

A fuel which has been sitting for a period of time will start to lose octane points, get moisture in it and be useless, or not 'optimum'

As everyone always says, go to a servo who turns over alot of fuel. Why say this if there is no merrit to it??

Then there are the dodgey blokes who 'water' there fuel down with crap.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A car shouldnt be tuned to the point where if the fuel isnt 100% its going to ping its head off if a tuner cant tune a car without it pinging I suggest another tuner

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Spot on Adam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Gents,

Lets get one basic fact straight. ANY car with ANY tune will ping if the quality of fuel is poor enough. This is a fact.

When we go to a tuner for a custom tune - the goal of this is often to maximise the torque and resultant power. I have had my car tuned (post Edit) by both HPF and Nizpro who I beleive are two of the best in the country (if not the best). In both cases my car was tuned using 98 octane fuel, and my primary maps were specifically tuned (at my request) for 98 octane fuel.

There is a very simple reason for this - it is possible to achieve better power and higher efficiencies through more advanced timing. If I were to put 95 octane fuel in my car when running a 98 map - I would expect my car to ping from time to time until the knock protection retarded timing. If it didn't then the tuner has NOT done their job correctly.

If you get a bad batch of fuel - then by rights the tune should be reflashed for one to cope with poor fuel, rather than relying on the knock control as this will only retard timing when knock is detected (ie already happening), or drive the car easily until the fuel is replaced.

If the quality of fuel is poor enough - then the knock control will not be able to take out sufficient timing to prevent the pinging from occurring. More aggressive timing settings on our peak power 98 maps are obviously going to suffer from this with a smaller drop in fuel quality than a more conservative map.

Bottom line is if you want a map that will be far more tolerant of poor fuel - expect less power than could be acheive with a more agressive map. This has nothing to do with the quality of the tuner, it is just a basic fact.

As a specific example on my '98 octane' map my car produced 331rwkw, but with several degrees taken out for a '95 octane' map at the approximately same rpm and boost at peak power the car 'only' made 309rwkw.

As consumers we just need to be careful about making sure tuners are not just using this as a blind excuse, but need to recognise that poor fuel will inescapably impact the performance of a highly tuned car.

my 2c...

Cheers,

Ben.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ben,

that being the case when bad fuel is used to tune a car yes the end result will be a average tune. But if no bad fuel is used then timing is controled by tuner then the only other reason for pinging would be air density or presure drop through ic pumping or heat right.

what I'm trying to figure out that if fuel supply is OK fuel quailty is OK and timing is controled by tuner whilist getting tuned then only other variable is air density.

Does that mean that we are able to achieve more kws with colder conditions.

so for example if you have achieved 331rwkws on a 98ron tune. So you decide to tune your car say on a 9 degree day I would assume you could get an extra

5-8rwkws due to air density. SO then you have say 339rwkws. What happens on a hot day say 36degrees you would lose some power and may start to ping?

Does that mean your tune will need to be retuned or will the knock sensor kick and retart your cars tune and stop from pinging.....

cheers

shockwavexr6t

[Turbo6man]

OK this is a very topical point of discussion and the experts will all be onto it ... so here's some points to ponder.

Firstly detonation and pre-ignition are technically very different things. Granted that at the end of the day the resultant damage to your engine may be the same. Detonation is a much more serious condition and the damage caused can be both severe and immediate. Pre-ignition is the much lesser of the two evils and can be tolerated to a small degree as long as it isn't a permanent occurrence. They are caused by different things but the symptons and consequences are closely related.

Bugger, dinner is ready - I'll be back with the detailed explanation soon ...

... continued ...

Pre-ignition is the premature burning of the charge.

Detonation is the sudden and uncontrolled burning of the charge.

Pinging (pinking) is a description of the noise than one hears when either of the above conditions exists.

Pre-ignition occurs mainly because of incorrect ignition timing but other factors can also contribute including incorrect plug gap, incorrect plug heat range, incorrect A/F ratio, and build-up of carbon deposits on plugs or valve heads or piston crowns. This is said on the basis that all other (generally) non-variable engine parameters do not alter significantly. That is, such things as compression ratio and incoming charge temperature.

Detonation occurs when the combustion chamber pressure is too high or the charge temperature is too high. Now obviously some of the things that cause pre-ignition can also contribute to the cause of detonation. For example if the A/F ratio is too lean the charge temperature will increase and can contribute to the onset of detonation. And with turbo engines there are simply a myriad of things that can contribute - most of these have been covered and include the efficiency of the turbo, the intercooler, and, at the raw edge of max power also the fuel quality will come into it.

Traditionally, my own experience with tuning both naturally aspirated and turbo engines is that the tune should be done with the lowest octane fuel that the engine is likely to ever see. Now this is ultra conservative and will result in considerably lower power levels but I have NEVER suffered an engine blow-up in over 30 years of "mechanicing".

Having said that though, I have to say that with the advent of knock sensors in modern fuel injected engines much more aggressive tuning can be employed and still keep the engine within safe bounds. If the tune is conducted even on the highest octane fuel the current crop of vehicles with knock sensors can cope with running the car on lower octane if timing is the only criteria. What I mean by this is that, as long as the major variables such as combustion chamber pressure, incoming charge temp, and A/F ratio is strictly controlled, then the retardation of timing by the knock sensors in itself should be quite enough to control pre-ignition or detonation.

Unfortunately we see way too many tuners who are setting way too an agressive timing curve (or so it seems to me) and they are not making any allowance for the "other" variables in the system. They tune for an engine that is at maximum efficiency and don't allow for wear and tear or even the "unexpected". There is no safety margin.

Things that have to be considered are:- such as the intercooler suffering from heat soak after a few hard attacks, or the fuel pressure dropping off after a period of time. After all, everything wears out eventually (and usually gradually) - fuel pumps don't run the same presure from day one to the use-by date. They don't just suddenly die - it happens over a period of time and during this time the pressure gradually declines. This is just one item I've used as an example but the analogy applies to ALL the engine components, fuel injectors, spark plugs, air filters ... everything that is in the inlet tract that can have an effect on the operating efficiency of the engine.

Sorry for the long post but hope it helps some people to understand the issue.

[shockwavexr6t]

OK this is a very topical point of discussion and the experts will all be onto it ... so here's some points to ponder.

Firstly detonation and pre-ignition are technically very different things. Granted that at the end of the day the resultant damage to your engine may be the same. Detonation is a much more serious condition and the damage caused can be both severe and immediate. Pre-ignition is the much lesser of the two evils and can be tolerated to a small degree as long as it isn't a permanent occurrence. They are caused by different things but the symptons and consequences are closely related.

Bugger, dinner is ready - I'll be back with the detailed explanation soon ...

... continued ...

Pre-ignition is the premature burning of the charge.

Detonation is the sudden and uncontrolled burning of the charge.

Pinging (pinking) is a description of the noise than one hears when either of the above conditions exists.

Pre-ignition occurs mainly because of incorrect ignition timing but other factors can also contribute including incorrect plug gap, incorrect plug heat range, incorrect A/F ratio, and build-up of carbon deposits on plugs or valve heads or piston crowns. This is said on the basis that all other (generally) non-variable engine  parameters do not alter significantly. That is, such things as compression ratio and incoming charge temperature.

Detonation occurs when the combustion chamber pressure is too high or the charge temperature is too high. Now obviously some of the things that cause pre-ignition can also contribute to the cause of detonation. For example if the A/F ratio is too lean the charge temperature will increase and can contribute to the onset of detonation. And with turbo engines there are simply a myriad of things that can contribute - most of these have been covered and include the efficiency of the turbo, the intercooler, and, at the raw edge of max power also the fuel quality will come into it.

Traditionally, my own experience with tuning both naturally aspirated and turbo engines is that the tune should be done with the lowest octane fuel that the engine is likely to ever see. Now this is ultra conservative and will result in considerably lower power levels but I have NEVER suffered an engine blow-up in over 30 years of "mechanicing".

Having said that though, I have to say that with the advent of knock sensors in  modern fuel injected engines much more aggressive tuning can be employed and still keep the engine within safe bounds. If the tune is conducted even on the highest octane fuel the current crop of vehicles with knock sensors can cope with running the car on lower octane if timing is the only criteria. What I mean by this is that, as long as the major variables such as combustion chamber pressure, incoming charge temp, and A/F ratio is strictly controlled, then the retardation of timing by the knock sensors in itself should be quite enough to control pre-ignition or detonation.

Unfortunately we see way too many tuners who are setting way too an agressive timing curve (or so it seems to me) and they are not making any allowance for the "other" variables in the system. They tune for an engine that is at maximum efficiency and don't allow for wear and tear or even the "unexpected". There is no safety margin.

Things that have to be considered are:- such as the intercooler suffering from heat soak after a few hard attacks, or the fuel pressure dropping off after a period of time. After all, everything wears out eventually (and usually gradually) - fuel pumps don't run the same presure from day one to the use-by date. They don't just suddenly die - it happens over a period of time and during this time the pressure gradually declines. This is just one item I've used as an example but the analogy applies to ALL the engine components, fuel injectors, spark plugs, air filters ... everything that is in the inlet tract that can have an effect on the operating efficiency of the engine.

Sorry for the long post but hope it helps some people to understand the issue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

thanks for the feedback turbo6man,

having said that so with my current mods I'm unable to go any further to extract more power without pinging as my tuner said knock test showed 305rwkws.

so the only way to make more power is more efficent ic plumbing different plenum and ic this will stop pinging (pinking) and give me an extra 30rwkws right!

sound like I have to send more money!!!

cheers

shockwavexr6t