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  1. Thought I'd make a thread of my modding journey, anyone who is keen to post their own journey is more than welcome! the rig end of last year ----- current - minus exhaust before current
  2. Hey guys. I'm having harmonic driveline vibrations in my '07 Manual typhoon. But first a run down on the history of the car. Bought in 2011 with only 17 000 ks, and had stuffed diff bushes from the get go, that was fixed firstly by ford. They lasted about 5000ks and were pooched. The next diff bush endeavour was done at an independent shop and all three bushes were replaced with nolathane polyurathane (or however you spell that) bushes. Now.. this uncovered the first vibration! turns out the tailshaft was out of balance quite badly, and wasn't noticed previously due to the bushes soaking up all the vibration, and was noticed after due to the solid bushes.. (also explains why I went through the factory bushes so quickly!) So that was fixed and my car was the best its ever been. After about 10000 ks of worry free motoring I went chasing horsepower. Some blingy bits, some supporting mods, a clutch and a trip to Monsta Torque and my F6 was comfortably producing 384rwkw. At this stage I started to have wheel hop issues. A few really bad 1st gear axle tramp launches at the drags and I figured something wasn't right, shortly after that I snapped a halfshaft.. Due to being recently back from an overseas working holiday and en-employed I just chucked a high k's second hand half shaft in it so I could drive it again. whilst doing this I noticed the the diff bush housing on the k frame was tearing!! MY POOR BABY! Also noticed was the beginning of this latest vibration that I'm having. I was convinced it was something to do with the rooted cradle, or a sh*tty CV from the high k's half shaft, or the other halfshaft about to let go as well. So after getting some money together again I forked out and went silly. Coilovers all round, swaybars front and rear, IMS twin bush diff hat and a matched pair of low k's halfshafts. All done in the back shed by yours truly. I thought for sure this will solve my wheel hop and vibration problems for sure! AND IT DID! solve the wheelhop issue... but not the vibration! I was convinced it has to be tailshaft as everything else has been changed! (diff was inspected and was fine). But then when I was driving it today I noticed something. you see before hand, I thought the vibration was totally linear with ground speed, MOST prominent with downshifting, engine breaking and seemingly consistent around 100-120kph. But TODAY I noticed around 110 in 5th gear the vibration is quite loud/prominent, but shift to 4th or 6th with the same load and it almost disappears... So now I'm thinking I have a on-its-way-out T56 that's causing the suspected vibration.. Thoughts? Sorry about the Novel just trying to supply as much info as I can, I appreciate any input or suggestions! P.S If anyone's been thinking of doing the IMS diff hat, DO IT, its so worth it. Cheers.
  3. Hey all , I'm in the process of doing my first engine build on my Barra 6 , I'm tossing up between Atomic Superleggera conrods atomic icon forged pistons or nitto / cp forged pisons and rods .. both are in my budget and I've head good things about both. the atomic gear is a bit cheaper , and differences in H an I beam for choice ? looking to reach around the 550 - 600 rwkw power.
  4. Hi ladies and gents I've recently replaced my stock turbo with a procharge 67mm low mount however I'm not happy with the OEM heat shield in the engine bay, its getting old and looks grubby. Has anyone replaced this with a turbo blanket or similar?? Or would I be sacrificing performance for pure aesthetics?? Advice would be much appreciated. Cheers Chad
  5. Hey lads and ladies (maybe) So I've met my first power goal of 500hp and am in need of a new clutch very soon as I only have the stock FG F6 one. Any advice on clutches I should be considering???? my next power goal will be the 700hp mark so want something that's not going to clap out and take a beating but still relatively light for city driving. My mate will be putting the EXEDY DEVIL CLUTCH (ceramic and organic) in his XR6T which is pushing 700hp and he said he'll be able to get this for cheap through the business for me. Has anyone got any experience with EXEDY??? if so any info would be much appreciated and prices etc..... also any advice on mechanics in Brisbane to do the labour. Cheers Chad
  6. I have an option of 2 cars im incredibly stuck on... 2008 FPV f6 with 100,000km ($26,000) or 2015 FGX xr6 turbo with 50,000km ($30,000) The FPV f6 will retain a lot of its value and its already modified a bit and making 300rwkw (about $2500 worth of mods), and it has brembo brakes and simply the FPV badge. Where as the FGX is the newer car, under warranty, and its just a fresh new car that not many people have atm. And I really do love the new FGX front design with the lights. Where as the fpv's have been around for a while now and every person has modded them and stuff, so I can be a bit more original and stand out more in the fgx? I have driven both and they both drive really well. Just unsure which one to buy. I do plan on keeping the car for a while. Just wondering of the 10 year old FPV is too old now, and whether its 'smarter' tobuy the new car despite it being much more subtle than the FPV. Eventually I will modify both and want them to stand out as much as possible. So torn apart help!!!!!!!!!
  7. Hey lads Happy new year soon! But car parts is life lol. So I am in dire need for new rear rotors and brake pads all round as I'm getting heavy shudder, I took it into a mechanic who put front dba t3 rotors on and new crap repco brake pads all round and have been back 4 times to try and figure out why the shudder. I got the rear stock brembo rotors machined, no help. I gave up on mechanics and decided just to do things myself. I changed them out with another set of second hand rotors, no go too. So I'm just going to change them out with some new DBA t3 rear rotors and brake pads all round and see if that fixes it. However I've done some research on brake pads and HOLY sh*t there is a lot to choose from! So my question is to all the barra gods out there is, where should I start??? I'm heavy on the brakes often but no track days as of yet and I hate hate hate brake dust!!! I have learnt ceramic is the way to go for little brake waste and am willing to pay a bit extra to get good performance with no rim muck........ I'm in Brisbane, has anyone had any dealings with Brakes direct? or know anywhere that does rotors and brake pads at a reasonable price? P.s. I've got 4 pot brembo fronts and 1 pot OEM rear. Cheers
  8. Hey! Looking at getting some new rims for my white F6 ute could you help me identify these ones shown in the pic below?? these look mint! Cheers!
  9. Hey lads So tax time is has arrived! :D and I'm very bored with stock power! So I'm getting a X-force 4inch dump and high flow cats put on for $1500 and straight after I'll be getting it tuned. Prices for a SCT flash tune Xcal4 or X4 I'm not to sure of the name of it was $2200 with 3 custom tunes, he was also saying another option was a direct file remap for $1650 but I've been told they're sh*t so wont be doing that. Also I can get a boost controller high revs comp for $1100 but is that worth getting??? I'm pretty sure he was saying that option adds so I can change the preset tune on the fly instead of having to stop and I <3 Bananas around to change presets. The quotes were from RPM dyno and performance in Morayfield, Brisbane. Has anyone had any dealing with these guys??? or can recommend anyone better??? his sales pitch was that he does a full custom tune that takes two days. Also if I have enough cash I would like to get injectors which he priced at $1000 for 1000cc injectors. Any advice would be much appreciated! Cheers
  10. Hi, new to the page. I have just got a f6 bf, the harmonic balancer has cracked and stripped off, the key is full of sealer the bolt is missing. Is this common? Its been dodged up by prévois owner with no more gapes Barth room sealer to hold it on. Ive fixed heaps of rough stuff engine stuff already and it's getting better slowely.
  11. Decided to do a build thread so I have all my mods documented in one place. BF2 - 2007 - #0166 - Lightning Strike Silver - Manual - 80,000km - Fully optioned - Est 350rwkw (getting tuned this week) I bought this ute in January 2013. I found it on carsales, it was up in North Sydney.The guy I bought it from was the original owner and still had all the original documents and receipts from Ford which was nice. I did see a total figure of $67,000 when he bought it new. Geeez. lot of money for a ute. I payed 22k for it. It was in really good condition cosmetically. 64,000km on the clock. Completely bone stock. Exactly what I wanted. The only issue it had was the hard lid didn't really fit properly which I came to learn was a problem with the factory lids. I ended up fixing it thought --> http://www.fordxr6turbo.com/forum/topic/89197-babf-factory-hardlid-fitment-issues-my-solution/ The turbo gave up the ghost after a few months of abuse but this was due to lack of maintenance by the previous owner and the standard oil feed line blocking. I replaced the core, installed an earls feed line with filter & also changed the exhaust housing while it was out to a modified one (ported, wastegate flap) I've been collecting mods over the past year or so. As tempting as it was to go get some injectors, a cat and a tune, I patiently waited as I decided early on the power figure I ultimately wanted, do it right the first time. I had a bad bike accident a few months back so while I'm not able to ride, I decided to just buy the remaining mods I need and get the car going like I always wanted. 1. I did my own battery relocation early on in the piece in preparation for a turbo side intake. Was pretty cheap to do. I mounted a battery box to the floor behind the drivers seat. Ran the +positive cable under the right side trim/scuff guards and up through the firewall where the clutch master is. This was an easy mod. 2. Decided to get a HID conversion kit. Just a cheap flebay one but it does the job and came with 2 years warranty. Not a bad kit considering the price. My last car had zenons, they are leaps and bounds ahead of the standard H4's Right side ballast & controller. Mounted to the battery tray. May as well use it for something. Left side ballast. Standard airbox wont be going back in. They are hectic bright. Need to point them down slightly (ask pixy angel) 3. Brakes. Still rocking the original rotors and the fronts are pretty farked. Replaced with a set of DBA T3 Clubspec slotted rotors. Brembo Pads had been replaced by the previous owner just before I bought the car so I resurfaced them and re installed.
  12. Hi, Long time lurker here that thought it is about time to add something. This site has helped out greatly. So I own a 07 BF f6 typhoon in ford breeze that I bought in 09 2nd owner. Bought at 30,000kms and only has 60,000km now The car was still under warranty when it was purchased from a very unique individual (think baked beans and dirty mags) but I couldn't wait for more power. I use d a certain tuner in QLD that added a single walbro fuel pump, nizpro valve springs, injectors, Xcal 3 and Stage 1 Nizpro cooler, k&n panel filter and *shiny bling* polished crossovers it produced 273rwkw. Cost wise this hurt me a bit and didn't get me were I wanted to be. I made a post on here and it escalated quickly and it got deleted. I was lurking around here back then and had got the crazy idea that this setup could of pushed the car over 300rwkw from some of the things I had read, this was obviously not the case. Being somewhat disappointed (it hit me right in the feels) I set aside any further upgrades for years until just recently. After some more research and finding a tuner close by I ventured down to Forced Performance and Tuning Toowoomba. Now these guys are great, they take the time and listen to what your after and don't try to unnecessarily empty your wallet. I was reluctant after my last experience so nerves played a part. I got a 4'dump and cat added while retaining the factory system back. I was given plenty of options and never had any pressure in making my choice Wow ! after the parts and retune it now makes 353rwkw and the car feels so silky smooth. Economy is also up about 120+km's a tank as I was previously getting about 380 -400kms a tank. I have pictures. I will upload once I fix my donate issue (my end). I have now booked in for late September to throw more stuff at it. Clutch (NPC Twin Plate) IMS Diff hat and bushes Billet Oil Pump/gears Headstuds Valve Springs - mine are sh*t already Turbo Oil Feed Line Process West Plenum (my choice) plazmaman is cheaper but the PW is a nice bit of kit Airbox/Process West Battery Relocation Process West Twin surge tank 1000cc inj Retune on 98 & E85 XYZ Coilovers P.S Nittos are win! their a great bang for buck tyre with noticeable increase to traction. Also Transmax Z reduced gearbox noise to about 20% - So ill post back after this is done with updates & pics. Ford for life
  13. Hi there peeps, Recently got me an F6 and I've only just started to open her up and it sits around .65 - .70 bar of boost at WOT. Is this normal? I've tighten up all the hose clamps. She's bone stock only thing I've got on is the Herrod CAI. Could the plugs have a role? Thanks
  14. Hi guys new to the site just after some advice on a good tuner for a fg f6 in sydney just thinking a tune and possibly a high flow cat and a 4 inch dump pipe.the car is quick enough standard but just looking for a little more.
  15. Fellas, Had me middle muffler removed last week and soon right after popped back in to swap out the rear for a Magnaflow for I think it was a 4 x 9" because it was still rather quiet for my taste. Both made a nice note, with just the middle removed I liked it's half raspy, half deep tone more then the straight deep punch of the MF, but the MF gave a much more noticeable and satisfying pop and crackle on lift off but the "fart" on gear change is considerably quieter and neither droned. Now I'm probably deaf but I still find it rather quiet lol. So was after some accounts on who has run their's straight through as that's what I'm contemplating next. I think it'll be too raspy? Slap on a hotdog so it's not so raspy? Oh and I had the work done at Rob Bliss at Geebung BTW. Great blokes, highly recommend them. Called in rather late on a Friday arvo, no probz. Popped in the Monday after, no probz, had it done in a jiffy. Aaron, I think was the bloke's name. Recommended the Magnaflow and how it'd sound, was spot on. Thanks
  16. Hi there peeps, Just picked up me first turbo car about a month back, an F6. So thought I'd clean out the throttle body today and I noticed some oil residue/ deposits in the intake runner and was wondering is the amount normal? She's done 42000kms if that helps. Thanks
  17. Hey guys Ive recently (well in the last 12 months) put a Genuine F6 body kit on the front of my FG XR6T tonner Ute. After I had a little run in with a fence I decided an upgrade would be better than a repair. So I thought Id document the journey and recorded parts & prices in case anyone else is interested in doing the same thing. DECISION When doing an FPV body kit there are 2 main routs you can take; Genuine or Fiberglass, each with their benefits & drawbacks. -Basically going genuine will cost a hell of a lot more & you will probably have difficulty finding individual parts for an appropriate price. But it will fit 100% and be plastic meaning it will be more hardy if it catches or scrapes on gutters. The easiest option is to check in with FPV focused wreckers for complete body kits straight off the car. -All after market kits are Fiberglass, which tends to (the internet told me this) crack and splinter more than plastic as it is not as Flexible. It will most likely need massaging & trimming to fit properly and a lot more prep-work for a good paint finish. However... with bumpers on ebay starting from $300 they are far cheaper, especially considering that they have the lower grill surround, upper grill surround & fog light surrounds already in the mold which genuine can cost $300 each & are very hard to find. There are also ones that are molded to suit the XR style headlights if you prefer to keep that look. I would genuinely recommend people go this rout if they have the time to prep the bumper or want to have a go painting it themselves. I went the Genuine rout, mostly because this is a daily work & leisure ute that will certainly see gutters, and because I underestimated how many other parts there where to find, and the cost & difficulty in acquiring them. Just for the front end parts I spent over $2500 before paint. SHOPPING LIST Here is my receipt for the front end & side skirts. Purchasing the bumper in early August 2015 & finally getting my hands on a pair of fog light surrounds in mid January, it was a drawn out process that took a solid 6 Months on eBay, calling wreckers and shopping around. Collected parts from Sydney Special Vehicles, FTG AutoSalvage, Macarthur Auto Parts, eBay sellers: mr.fpv, ikeech, mrcarparts.59 and Gumtree Genuine: -FPV Bumper: $900 -FPV Upper Insert : $300 -FPV Upper insert rear molding: $205 -F6 Lower Insert: $250 (slight damage) -FPV Fog Light surrounds & brackets: $270 -Stone/Splash Guard Extension lip: $100 (bargain) -FPV Ute Side skirts + Brackets, cabin only: $680 Aftermarket: -Upper Grill: $210 -Lower side Grills: $140 -F6 Headlights: $199 -Stainless bolts for stone guard: $15 -Short button head screws for grills: $5 BUMPER Bumper was the first thing I picked up. Found it on Gumtree, new, never used, was in storage for project that never eventuated so $900 is a good price. All the parts are the same for F6 & GT until you talk about the lower grill area, that's the only difference. Upper Insert & the Upper Insert rear molding. I didn't even know the rear molding existed until I tried to put it all together, It basically clips the front insert & bumper together & provides screw holes for the grill. Luckily the guy I bought the front piece from knew what I was on about because I have never actually seen one listed on eBay. Probably the parts I over-paid the most for. F6 Lower Insert. Mine was missing the tow point cover and had some deep scratches in it that were bogged before painting, but the piece was still a bit pricey. The single hardest part to find for a 'reasonable' price. Eventually came across them on my fortnightly wreckers ring around. There was 2 other pairs I saw previously on eBay but were asking $400+ Chrome plastic surround with metal brackets to mount the fog light. The Splash Shield Extension lip was another part with little information that I only knew existed after asking another forum user. The FPV bumper is about 100mm longer and slightly lower (enough so that I now scrape when parking into gutters with stock suspension) I did however get a good deal on it. Was getting a new splash shield to replace my broken one so I messaged the eBayer about it who happened to have one and threw it in for an extra $100. Which is very good considering there's used lips on eBay atm for $300+. It bolts to the splash shield using existing screws. However mounting to the bumper is apparently done from factory with large plastic rivet thingys, so instead I got some stainless dome head bolts & lock nuts. Here's the Stainless bolts I used for the splash shield, Button head screws for the grills and you'll most likely need extra Scrivits or Christmas tree plugs for re-mounting mud guards, as I got out the angry pliers to remove them. For the Grills I went after market. They're stainless, cheaper, fit perfect, look the same and in the case of the Upper grill don't come with an F6 outline in them, which would look silly if you don't plan to put an F6 badge there. Find them on eBay. There's also the option of a central lower grill but I wanted the open Intercooler look. If going for a GT front the lower grill & insert will be different. There are only 2 shapes of FG headlight; XR & non-XR. Meaning the base model lights are the same as FPV, which keeps the price down for us. I went with aftermarket Sydney Special Vehicles Headlights though because they're cheaper for the same look, you can feel the lacking build quality though. I didn't like the look of the DRL/ fairy light options & already had HID kits ready to attach. Now the Wheel arch splash Guards have an ever so slightly different profile around the bottom of the bumper. You can spend the extra $500 or so on a full FPV set, or do what I did with some cutters to make them fit better & mount solid. Remove the bottom section of the mud guard. Cut off the outer screw point. Then Cut along the back edge about yay far. You can then remount with that tail part poking under the lip extension and secure in the same position but with only 2 bolts and some new Christmas tree plugs. Profile is still a little different but not $500 different Removing the old bumper involves 2 bolts under the bonnet; either side of the upper grill & then 2 on each corner of the bumper, accessed by pulling back the wheel arch mud guards. There's then 2 small bolts at the back of the under bumper splash shield. Un-clip the corners of the bumper, unplug the fog lights & it should all come off. Swap out the headlights and your good to put on your new bumper. All mounting points line up perfectly so just bolt it all back up. SIDE SKIRTS Now the Side skirts I lost the photos of. (Phone went swimming) But they were Genuine, new & in blue. There is a Chrome insert at the front of each that clips in, which for the pair goes for around $100, however mine came included with them. They also require 4 aluminum brackets (2per side) which I also lost the photos for. The wrecker who quoted me the $680 didn't realize there were brackets at first but called me back once they found out and included the ford brackets new in packaging for me at the same price. (ftgautosalvage, would recommend, were very friendly & helpful even with my regular calls asking for the same parts) I then had the panel beater fit them as I was doing 12hr night shifts at the time, but you could make your own brackets or ghetto rig them up if you wanted. PAINT I had the bumper painted for cheap by a local shop (Not my first choice as they were too busy) when it first showed up. Found the paint code used on 50th turbo wheels and had the fangs painted to match, scratches in the lower insert bogged and painted gloss black black along with the FPV logo section of the bumper. The rest was painted 09 Lightning strike with a pair of indicator mirrors. Left the parts with them, $300 and took about 3 weeks. Result was not good they must have painted the whole thing in the darker colors then masked up & put the silver over top. They're lines & paint job were good but the silver didn't match at all. So once the side skirts turned up I had them done at my preferred local shop. $800 Left the car with them for a few days. They blended the sides of the bumper into the quarter panels & bonnet. Took 7 blending coats but it turned out 90%, can only fault if your trying to find it at certain angles to the light. Painted & fitted side skirts which came out perfectly and didn't need any blending. RESULT Went from this: To This: Along with a new Bonnet, PW Stage2 Intercooler, side mount number plate, Indicator mirrors, 50th Anniversary Badges, stickers & a Bobblehead! TLDR: Genuine F6 bodykit, spent over $4000, should have bought an F6 to begin with... I'm now even more scared of roos. Looks F*cking Epic though!
  18. I personally would like to thank our guys that went out last night, Dang with pb of 10.1@143mph running the btr 4 speed, Khye first time out with a 11.8 @ 130 mph & with a 2 year break Mark dusting the cobwebs with a 9.5 @ 150mph, Mark has been running our stage 3 ZF for over 2 years which has the modified 6r80 shaft, pump & 4 pinion billet carrier & finally been able to test its capabilities with still plenty in reserve. Now with the data that's been collected we can make some changes & move forward Congratulations to all .....more to come !
  19. Thought I might kick off a bit of a register for the F6 Utes. I didn't realize they were as rare as they are. Starting here with BF 2006 #0077 in silhouette, fully optioned. Stock
  20. Hi all, Long time lurker, I have decided to post up my up and coming build. As it sits, my ute is pretty much stock, just a K and N air filter I got from amazon . com for around $63 shipped to perth and a whiteline swaybar at the front. There is also an intake muffler delete in the engine bay and that's about it right now... Plans as it sits now: I have a MANTA 4" to twin 3" system ready to go on a set of Injector Dynamics 1000cc squirters lower temp thermostat herrod intake piping (which may be up for sale... NEW, just opened to look at) to acquire: intercooler and piping kit... (was thinking stage 2 process west kit... thoughts, comments welcome) turbo wastegate modding.. spoke to a great company that will mod the turbo when I pull it off, half a day to perform the work and a very reasonable price surge tank and pump set up.. ( ideas on breed welcome ) 11.8psi actuator anything else I have missed??? Ultimately I am only looking for 500rwhp Cheers
  21. Hey all, around a year ago I made a post trying to decide what was best for me in choosing an XR6T or an F6. The time has come for me to choose a car (only have $30k budget though) and the decision I've come to is the following but I need help deciding; - F6 Auto (Found one manual asking for $35k but its too much out of budget for me to get). I found one for $33k which already has had work done to it [350kw] and sitting on 100k KM and another for 28k that's stock and sitting on 130k KM). -XR6T Manual. Not in the colours I want (apart from one but the guy isn't getting back to me). Can pick one up for about $20k and might be able to convince the bank (aka my nan) that I need to spend some cash on it to make it last longer. -XR6T Auto. I'm a little stuck for wear guys. I read up that the F6's aren't even majorly that much faster than an XR6T so I'm a bit confused on what to go for. Also, they don't have the colour I'm after (apart from a Green F6 with 200k KM on it which is way too much). Advice peeps? Is the F6 really worth the extra? The guy who is selling his worked one has had it for two years and he did the work to it via a shop. Better off just getting an XR6T and doing some work to it via a shop? Cheers, George.
  22. Am I right in assuming that all BF XR series sedan and ute use the same black drivers door card vinyl? I need to replace mine. Has anyone got one for sale? Also, can anyone tell me the best way to: - remove the door card - separate the grab handle from the door card - separate the carbon door spear from the door card Thanks in advance.
  23. Tuned by Joe at CMS - BF2 - 2007 - FPV F6 Tornado - #0166 - Lightning Strike Silver - Manual - 80,000km - Fully optioned 331.2 rwkw & 964.2 Nm on 16psi on BP 98 Build Thread Here --> http://www.fordxr6turbo.com/forum/topic/89288-I-jets-bf-f6-ute-build/ Power mods Nizpro turbo side intake.PW stage 3 intercooler kit, hot and cold piping, TB relocation.PW surge with 044.Stainless steel Xforce turbo back, 4" dump, twin 2.5" cat back.Wastegate flapper mod.12psi Actuator.KPM 1000'sVery happy with how the car drives now, it feels really strong when it comes on boost, pulls hard all the way to redline. The torque is mental. 4th gear roll on....ooohhhhh yeah..... I'm glad I upgraded my suspension before getting it tuned. It has handling to match now. It does have a tendency to do 3rd gear power slides out of corners.....hehehhehe I really think the only change I will do in the future is an E85 tune when it becomes available in my area.
  24. Hi Guys, Just a quick question - has anyone had anything to do with the Ebay seller PerformanceWorld1? Looking at their Bosch 440cc Injectors that are a direct fit for fg xr6/g6E etc. Genuine? Anybody that can confirm as pictures are not detailed enough and cannot be enlarged which rings alarm bells for me. Cheers in advance !
  25. This is really bugging me! Hehe. Is there an actual difference? Surely it can't just be the wheels!! They look so different! http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Ford-Performance-Vehicles-F6-2011/SSE-AD-2389411/?Cr=3&sdmvc=1 - FPV F6 2011 FG MK I http://www.carsales.com.au/demo/details/Ford-Performance-Vehicles-F6-2013/AGC-AD-14844462/?Cr=5&sdmvc=1 - FPV F6 2013 FG MK II Also attached photos in case anyone in the future has this question and want to see the two cars when the links break.
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