Ok Just a poll on what people would prefer.
Just leave your vote & post your idea's.

The current V8 Supercar Championship.
where Ford gets penalised for every minor thing and gmh is allowed to do as they please.



Or a new Series That relates to what we drive on the road.
Back like the old days with the early GT Falcon, monaro's, torana's and Chrysler Chargers.

Have strick Homologation of what can be used.
Eg must be a high number of these cars and related parts sold before can be used.
With high production numbers and manufacturing standards that must comply with government regulations this should stop low number hot rods being made for the road.


Vehicle's are to use parts it is manufactured with like it's current driveline componants.

Have freedoms in exhausts, fuel systems, suspension, tuning but all must use factory mounting and style in there place. This will aid in making them faster than your everyday car and sound the part.

To keep costs down have control brakes, tyre's.

And best of all more variety of makes and models.

No handicapping a faster better car.
This will mean our manufacture's will have to do a better job on what they sell and means better cars for the road.

By having to use current componants this will also aid in better development in what vehicle we drive.

We need to keep muliply owned teams out and any teams found sharing data will be excluded for the term of Championship year plus fined accordingly (No acceptance of financial agreements).

Just think about how good a current falcon could be with years of ongoing race track development.

It would also be a cheaper series as the need for exotic parts won't be there.

Less struggle for teams to find big sponsorship.

Say for example a well known XR6 Turbo tune shop decided to enter a Turbo Falcon it would help his business and at same time give the aftermarket better upgrades.
As if there car was the stand out everyone wanting to upgrade there car would contact them.

I feel Ford Australia and other Manufacture's would benifit greatly from a comp like this as compared with it's current v8 supercars comp.

Toyota and Mitsibishi have been trying to get involved for a long time.
Bring on the Modern era and ditch the irrelevent pushrod powered supercars

I like it just the way it is.

One of your arguements for doing this is because Holden (in your eyes) has an unfair advantage.
If they raced road going versions the VE would crap all over every Falcon out there by a long way.

I like the cars the way they are. They are as mechanically indentical as they can be.

Haven't we already got a series like this? Called GT Production isn't it?

I wouldn't mind the current V8 supercar series so much if it were properly controlled

exactly

and nobody really gives a toss about it. I'd rather watch Holden wining every race than sit there and watch evo's wining because of their 4 wheel drive advantage

All the cars being the same is part of the problem. There is absoloutly no correlation to real Fords and Holdens.

At the moment, Ford has no incentive to build better performance cars than Holden. In a production car based seres (as in the glory days) manufacturers were forced to produced better cars in order to compete. As a result, the rest of us benefited with such legend cars as the GT Falcons, Monaros, XU1, etc. If a VE can flog a BF, so be it, at least it will be a fair fight (although it is not that simple, because reliability and real world scenarios come into play, not sheltered magazine style testing).

Can you imagine the quality of brakes and suspension components an FPV and HSV would be released with.

As far as the current GT production series goes, the racing is much more indicitive of what actual road cars can do. The only reason it is not as popular, is because the V8 series is copping all of the hype, organisational funding and attention. And, all of the good drivers are reserved for the V8s. Also, to really make things interesting, things could be broken up into classes such as supercars, large sedans, mediums, etc. Let's face reality, they only reason the V8 category class was created, was because V8 sedans were no longer competative because they were getting left behind by technology (mainly Holden, because Ford has competetive vehicles in all classes).

The whole excuse of creating a V8 class to get back to the glory days of Bathurst is rubbish. In the glory days there were multiple manufacturers, all vying to build the best road going product (Brock drove his Torana from Vic to Bathurst, raced it, won and drove home). And, V8s aren't the only Bathurst legends, we have Mini Coopers, Toranas, Cortinas, Sierras, GTR, XJS, etc.

Variety is the spice of life. At the moment the V8 circus is restricted to just two brands, therefore it has limited appeal. Open it up to all brands and the appeal is becomes much wider. It will attract new viewers to the sport and the manufacturers will benefit.

I would like to see a new series similar to the Group C or Group A series of the 80's.
Make them road cars with almost unlimited mods, but requiring homologation models for anything fancy like big wheels/motors/brakes/aero
Level the playing field with induction restrictors like WRC and handling/traction with wheel sizes.
If you want to run AWD, then you have skinny tyres.
The GT Production cars are a great series, with very little publicity, but I would rather see racing cars that are fully worked. It would also be good if they were factory only teams.
Could you imagine a series that had factory backing from all the major car makers ?
2 cars from Ford, GMH, Toyota, Mazda, Mitsubishi, MErc, Lexus, etc.

What a top option. This would encourage manufacturers to produce better cars as a platform. Modifications could be on the grounds that the car's original chasis must be used. Suspension and brake mods must be using the stadnard car's configuration, motors must be the same as those found in the production car (turbo mods could be restricted to the std turbo), wheels and tryes must be the same size as those used on the production car. Drive trains must also be the same as those found on the production car. This way, modifications are restricted to the limits of the standard cars ability (through reliability) and therefore the same that a private owner (with unlimited funds) could do to their car. In addition to better cars from manufacturers, the aftermarket side of things would also benefit greatly.

What a top idea .. the only thing I would add is if a series like this was to ever get a hope of running, it would have to cost either the same or less to run than the current cars. Ford have already indicated that they are intending to reduce the expenditure in the Supercar series, and in the good ole days of Group A racing, the costs were on par (in raw dollars) with the current expenditure (ie: a 2-car team costs $1 million to run now, back in the Group A days, it was $1 million back then)

If holden would get off there @rse and release a new turbo 6 then we could have the OZ TURBO cup or somthing similar, i don't think the vl's would have much off a chance against the T's

It would have to be cheaper.

For a start, the series would not have to rely on just two manufacturers for factory support. Multiple manufacturers would mean much more money in the sport than now.

Also, being production based, the massive cost of building custom race cars from the ground up wouldn't be there.

I was meaning as per like Group C spec.

Why did it ever go away from it.
It was exciting

It was good seeing the different manufacture's contesting.

It didn't matter who won it was exciting.

Ford would dominate with the Sierra then Nissan with its orsm Goddzilla.
Ford where getten beat by it and it was good as you could see and tell all the Ford teams where trying to topple the GTR and where still getting wins even though out powered.
Not to mention Nissan beat the Fords through better product, and not by cheating and dictating the rules like gmh have done on many occassion.

Evan how loyal Iam to Ford I actually evan admitted to myself that I wouldn't mind owning a GTR, same with Longhurst with the BMW.

What more can I say it was so much better, exciting and enjoyable.

Remember those dice's with Johnson, Brock and Bartlett.
All totally different cars, but yet either could win.

If there was a new series to start again with these rules and open to all manufacture's, promoted properly it would leave V8 supercar for dust.
To watch Ford maybe getting beaten by say a evo and working with teams in ways to improve the Ford Production car to make it a winner, would be so gratifying and so would watching Ford to keep a head.

Some people on here suggest I may be Bias.
I can say that that is far from true, I enjoy watching all forms of motorsport, I have watched motorsport for years, I have no issue's with WRC, F1, Indy even though Ford has not been at the pointy end for years (Bar WRC the last 2 years).

My issue's are with the fact that a inferior car gets advantage's to be the dominant winning car in the V8 supercar series, That manufacture and it's teams is allowed to do as they please, and are able to dictate the rule's to suit and advantage them, when they are found to be in breach it's only a mater for them to make a finacial agreement to sweep the breach under the mat.

HOW MUCH LONGER IS FORD GOING TO TAKE THIS CRAP.
How many more sponsors are going to pull sponsorship before something is done.




I have read in the regulations for GTP racing that the Commodore gets freedoms in pistons and rods as they arn't stronger enough for racing conditions.
Ford are to use it's fitted componants as they are of quality.
The crummy was also allowed cylinder heads but had to be a certain brand (can't remember which heads but think it may have been yella terra)

These where rules for vz/vy verus BA/Bf.

Unless the pistons and rods are of stronger construction than gen 3 version I do not think the ve would be successful but be shown for the true pile of cheap manufactured junk it is.
Hell they probly use the daewoo pistons and conrods in them.

The ve fuel pumps would probably catch fire as well.

At this time gmh teams where saying the gen3 was a better option to the gen4 because of it's power delivery.


As for the power diff it would only mean Ford would need to add dual VCT control to it's already available timing control and the typhoon to receive 10 psi of boost that it can easily handle.

As for being as mechanically indentical as they can be that is also another thing how the ve gets to use the Ford set up in front susspension, engine gets to be positioned back in same place as the Falcon, same configuration in cylinder heads as the Ford.

All these where things the Ford had in advantage over the crummy.
What did Ford get.
Equal aero.

The v8 governing body has always disadvantaged the Falcon to make the crummy competitive.

Don't believe it ask Larry perkins about the power advantage Ford have had since the consception of v8 supercars.
I have a article that where he states this.
It was around the time there was talk of gmh getting to use Ford style symetrical ported heads.
Pre project Blue Print.

Wouldn't it have been quicker to just say "Holden's winning, i hate them!"

I admire your brand loyalty, but it's becoming a vision impairment.

The best thing about guys like you is it's easy to set them off. Keep up the good work champ!

Interesting arguments. I hark back to the days of the first (full size) TV camera's that were mounted in Peter Williamson's Celica. How exciting was that! Multiple classes, homolagation requirements that affected the entire industry, and wing to wing gut busting racing where cars from lesser classes stole the limelight through skill and good management. (Not saying that we need 4 classes like days of old - as that certainly had some difficulties...)
Today we experience the "It wasn't me, your honour" Walkinshaw benefit racing season. Stretch and bend the rules, and you can make them do what you need to ice down the results. No difference now to last season.

If only we had a V8 racing organisation that was willing to think just a little bit outside the box... and was just a little more prepared to experiment with the formula without it's current sterility. Clamp down on team ownership issues once and for all, limit data sharing between teams, add in another one or two manufacturers by invitation. There's so much that the general public couild "lap up" - but they're being treated like zombies and dished up the same meal at every restaurant.

Come on AVESCO......

And to add fuel to the fire; NO V8 racing coverage on the sports highlights of tonights Channel Nine news. Ouch.

Nothing new there. Channel 9 tend to deny the existance of sports they don't have coverage for.

One of the guys at work asked me if I watched the V8's and showed me the ratings for Sunday.
Can't remember what was the highest but Heamesh and Andy where 2nd highest then the V8's.

I wonder what the ratings are like for Bathurst now in percentage compared to the great Group C days.

Is it getting worst as this v8 series goes or is it Improving, has anyone got the info on this?

I know when I was a kid it was a ritual to watch the racing and even if you had other commitments they would get cancel especially when Bathurst was on.

I wish one day it would return back to being like it once was.

How's that relevant - totally different timeslot isn't it?

Don't know when what was showing but thats all he mentioned.

Even if they where at different times it still showed that the other 2 shows rated higher.

When I see him Monday I will ask him for more details on what he showed me and where he got it from.

Sorry...point being you're comparing the ratings on a program being televised at 9:30 pm vs. something in the middle of the day. If their was footy on another channel at the same time I imagine it wouldn’t fare too well - that would be your true indication.

So tab, what your saying is if the V8's where aired at the same time 9.30pm it would have had better ratings than either of the other 2 shows.

I don't think so. But hay I might be wrong as people like to go out and get away from the home on their days off.

Lets see what you all think.


(1) Do you think if the V8's was aired at night it would do better in it's ratings?

(a)Yes

(b)No



(2) Out of the people who have voted towards a new more relevant series.
How many of you currently watch V8 Supercars?

(a)Don't watch it at all

(b)Watch it when nothing else is happening

©Watch it every time it is aired


(3) Now if the new series was available?

(a)Still wouldn't watch

(b)Watch it more often

©Watch it when nothing else is happening

(d)Watch it when ever it was aired


This will be interesting to see what people think and what their answers will be. Just give your answers for each of the questions.

No, he's saying that the 2 shows are aired at different time slots so the ratings between them can't be compared.

Its all about selling cars ... he who spends more marketing dollars with the powers at be will obviously win races. It does get pretty obvious after a while.

Particularly when you have the lead two teams or should I say the leading 4 car team cruizing through the championship.

Rules? what rules? Everything can be fudged and interpretted differently.

When they decided to take the V8s overseas who was this going to benefit? Not the Australian public ... going to NZ is fair enough, nothing like a bit of cross tasman rivalry. But Dubai and China? If they did not have the market to sell the Commodores and HSV's do you think that they would be racing there?

I'm never going to Bathurst again ... at one stage I went 8 years i a row.

Bring back the old days and get the big boys to race the cars straight from the showroom floor ... no aero, no brake upgrades, no mods whatsover. Bring on the Brute Ute dyno testing before the race to check power outputs and get the real boys out there to show us what the cars can actually do.

I realise that the Fords are going to cop a hiding but at least then Ford can decide to do something about it or go back to being a providor of big safe family cars and taxis. They are already loosing out in the local car market...

You must be joking right!?

That's where 888 and FPR have gone wrong this year...
They've been busy trying to improve their car setup when all they had to do was pay for some billboards and tv, radio, magazine ads and they would've won races.

Let me clarify ... by saying "powers at be" I did not mean on actual marketing activities.

Exactly.

If Ford looses.
From the GTP rules I have read it seems as though the gmh product won't even go the distance, and with over 21 manufacturing recalls in the last nine to ten years I think that just shows it's quality or should that be lack of quality.

Say the dungadore happens to beat the Falcon, then what about the daewoo/barina/astra against the XR4/XR5, Soon to be released XR5 AWD and maybe the RS AWD (220kw), Then the V6 dungadore against the XR6, and then you have the XR6 t and F6's in the turbo/blowen classes.
All these cars falling under $100 000 Au.

Even if the hsv dungadore wins it will be one class to Ford beating gmh in all others.

If you have a good look at what Ford have in it's catalogue you would see it will do well.

It's biggest challange would come from a Multitude of Manufacture's in the likes of Nissan, Toyota,Mitsibishi, Subaru.




As for gmh paying to dictate the wins and avertising there on track success it does make for more sales.

How much did gmh pay to get the wheels car of the year, how does a car that has had 2 or more recalls in it's first 3mths get car of the year.
Major recalls at that.
I maybe wrong as maybe it earnt it before the recalls where anounced.

How did they hide the amount of recalls since the vt.
I only found out this after the release of the ve.
I suppose it was paying the right people to keep quite.

The biggest dud of a car is also the most sold v8 in AU and has the most race wins.
Its a old pushrod pile of crap no where in the same Quality or engineering advancement as the Ford Modular motors.

So if you disagree that win sunday sell monday is not the case, then why is gmh out selling Ford.

They've always sold more.

You will never be happy unless Ford is winning and even then i think you'd have something to complain about!

I mean this in the nicest possible way, but...
You sir are a twit!

You have totally biased, unrealistic and unfounded views.
I can think of plenty of Ford recalls and common problems. Ford and Holden are just as bad as each other when it comes to build quality.

Thank you Adam

No comment on your last post though I promised to stay out of it so I guess I should.

I'm staying out of it to from now on...
I don't know how much longer i can resist hitting the delete button.
The thing i'm stuck on is which button to push, topic or member.

I like the concept... How about the "Australian Showroom Shootout" --> "ASS" ... Straight off the showroom floor, different races for different classes of cars.

I recon it would be interesting to watch the car that I was looking at buying race against the other cars in its class !!

Adam ... Does that post through you over the edge? Sorry ...

can we start a poll??

all i wanna see is highly modified xr6t fully stripped and with all the chassis fruit of a v8 supercar, thrown in with the v8 supercars and see how it goes

You cant do that until all Holdens are banned from racing, a decision has been made as to which way the future of racing in this country should go and all relevant coporations have been contacted and told what they will be doing when the time comes.......

I think you will find your statement on that they have always sold more is incorrect.
You need to search the facts before making those statements as with what actually goes on behind the scene's with the v8's.
And who maybe in the nicest way a dim wit.

I have stated many a time that I don't care if Ford loose as long as it is to a better car team that don't dictate the rule's,
If it was any other gmh team or teams beating Ford and they weren't a 4 car team that was given all race data from all other gmh teams I would be saying that Ford needs to try a bit harder to be successful.

I have also said It's biggest challange would come from a Multitude of Manufacture's in the likes of Nissan, Toyota,Mitsibishi, Subaru.

The GTR Skyline & Supra would be the cars to dominate the Turbo 6 class, and it would be good to watch and to see if Ford could improve the T's & F6's to be competitive, may this would get Ford to start production of a AWD F6.

The WRX & EVO's will be the cars to beat in the 4 Turbo class, Ford may have a competitor to both of these very shortly.

And as for your statement that I will never be happy unless Ford is winning and even then i think you'd have something to complain about.
You are completely wrong.
As with things like 888 being penalised for using last years brakes I feel it was a harsh penality as there was no gain to be had from using them and that they should not have been penalised like that, it should have been a penality aimed at the team and not the driver as it was not his fault the last year rotor's where fitted.
A fine to the team would have been a deserving penality.

I have never said Ford have not had recalls, but what I will say is that they have not been anywhere near the amount as what the vt-ve dungadore's have in tally.

Can you tell me what problems I may be going to face with my 2 cars AU XR82 manual & BA XR6 T manual. Don't say T5 as they wouldn't be a problem until the power is raised.
I would like to know so I can prepare for these problems, please inform me since you seem to know.

Actually, Ford outsold Holden for years, right up until about the same time Holden started to dominate V8s.

Holden's sucess is compounded by Ford's complete inability to take to fight to Holden and play them at their own game (and Ford's marketing has been woefull for quite some time). Ford knows that the rules favour Holden, but have done little to rectify this.

Sadly, after being shown the GTP rules by a local competitor on the weekend, it seems that no matter what form motorsport takes in this country, Holden will find a way to have the rules massaged to siut themselves. I questioned this competitor with the reason why a GenIII GTS could walk away from a boosted F6 down Hidden Valley's straight. The reason is that GTP recognises that the Holden motors aren't strong enough for race conditions, and that Holden motors are allowed to run stronger valves, pistons, cranks and different cams. No other brand is allowed any engine modifications other than balancing, blueprinting, ECI and exhaust (but std manifolds and hedders must be used).

Yes, Ford's & Holden's product quality is prettey even, but Commodore does hold the most recalled car in Australian history record. On the other side of the coin, Ford sits on top as the most complained about brand in Australia, with Holden a close second (they ran the figures on the 9 news a few weeks ago).

Unfortunatly, I must admit that I may have to join the defeatest Laner and Tab led view. The only way things will change is if Ford does something to help themselves. As long as they keep accepting it and throwing money at the series, AVESCO will have no reason to change.

Frog the reason Ford started to loose sales was because of two two letter words....

V8 dropped.

AU.

Frog sh*t to you.

You need to check your facts and see when Holden took the sales lead (and you need to recount your letters).

Holden did gain ground on Ford when Ford dropped their V8, but Ford held onto their market lead right up intil the EB when they reintroduced the V8 (and V8 racing started), although Holden did beat Ford for the odd monthly sales, their yearly sales weren't on top.

Initially, Ford dominated the V8s, but were quickly penalised with reduced downforce, etc, etc. And the rest is history.

Interesting to note that Ford dominates the Saloon Car series.Although not the latest models -AU v VT is pretty representative of what a large percentage of the plebs drive,and it is a hard fought and entertaining series.

Also of interest is that the top runners in the Ford camp are working very hard (literally hands on)to help the Holden runners become more competitive, because the Falcon has many inherent advantages over the Holden,the main one being torque.

I think V8 Supercar will always have an audience but "Performance Car"should be the yardstick to truly assess the durability of a "production car"

The Typhoon had its first run in Darwin at the Hidden Valley Supercar meeting in APCC and it aquitted itself well in the heat and humidity.I will follow its progress with interest.

&


And technically I guess "V8" is more of a two-character acronym than anything

if this keeps up, i'm going to have to start putting sh*t on myself.....there's going to be no-one left to play with

bump

TEGA must have tampered with the brake lines on the wrong cars last weekend.

Yeah, suck sh*t to the litle rat faced tool!

Strange how the HRT cars which ran the same set-ups didn't have the same issues.

There are certain drivers I hate, *beep* Kelly tops the list with Skafe a close 2nd, Murphy is in there somewhere too. There's no better race when *beep* and Skaife don't finish

Got to give credit where it is due, Skaife is a champ. But still I never shed a tear when he ends up in the kitty litter.

And as for those other f*ckers Always whinging and moaning when things don't go there way. Murphy is hilarious....it's never the fact that he stuffs up, always everyone else's fault.

Like it or not, it is not the 70's anymore and the majority of people who buy family sedans these days don't give a flying fukc about what lap times the cars run at Bathurst. They care about stability control, how many airbags a car has, what it's ncap rating is, what the fuel consumption is like.

All of these things can't be measured on a race track. In the 70's it was fine to take your GT Falcon for a belt up the Hume Highway, if you got pulled over it was no big deal. Try it today and watch your car get impounded and then have 6 to 12 months walking to think about it..

Win on Sunday sell on Monday is a thing of the past. If a Ford laps Bathurst in 2:08's and uses 3 liters of fuel per lap and a Holden laps in 3:08 but only has to fill up once during the race, which of these FAMILY SEDANS do you think would sell better during the week?

Sorry, that simply isn't true. Car enthusiests know and understand that the V8 Supercars bear no relationship to the production models, but the majority of punters just don't understand. The see it that if Ford and Holden can build such fantastic road cars, some of it must trickle down to the production versions.

Win on Sunday sell on Monday is alive an well occording to Ford and Holden marketing (something they both agree on) otherwise they wouldn't invest so much time and money into making sure the car carrying their badge crosses the line first.

Bathurst is so important because it is a long endurance race that is very hard on machinery. This puts even more of a spotlight on a brand's ability to engineer a reliable product.

Sure, they don't race the same cars that punters buy, but the stigma of owning a winning brand that resembles the car they see winning is a very powerful marketing tool. If I had a dollar for every time any Holden fan tells me they love Holden because they win more races, I'd be pretty well off.

Look at F1, the cars don't even resemble the Toyotas, Ferraris, Renaults, Mercs, BMWs, yet they spend billions to compete and show off their engineering prowess, and yes, it sell them cars.

While enthusiest, like nearly everyone on this forum, might know better, we only make up the minority of car buyers, and most of us already have brand loyalty. It's the majority that racing as marketing is very important.

I'm sorry but i have to totally disagree with the hole Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday mentality, Ford and Holden think it works because it gives them an excuse to advertise and put the product in ppls minds, i can guarantee you that our result on Sunday has had SFA to do with sales this week! Yes we had phone calls regarding the Cobra on sunday and monday, because it was the first time everyone saw it and they got excited about a special edition. The fact that a car with a ford badge on the front of it makes no difference to a person looking at buying a fiesta or focus, or XT falcon.

F1 is different however, the new technology used in F1 eventually trickles down into production cars ie Honda and V-Tec. V8 supercars contribute nothing to modern vehicles because they use technology that was present in cars from 1980.

Yes a win at bathurst gives Ford fans a happy feeling, but if Bob has bought a GT, and is now looking for a fiesta for his daughter jenny, it won't make a difference if the lion or the blue oval was on top at mount panorama...

I know you are in marketing tmac, but you don't sit in the showroom after you've just advertised a product to see how the outcome is, yes good marketing campaigns work, but you can not contribute that to a Bathurst win.

Pat

I don't believe this BS thread is still going mods should close it. It's about as relevent as Brittney Spears